Old T/C Hawken?

[mykeal]

A member of our local sportsman's club brought in an old T/C rifle he'd had 'for many, many years' and asked me to see if I could restore it to useful function.

I believe it's an early version of the Hawken, but the cheekpiece and trigger guard are clearly different from today's T/C Hawken, and even those of 20 years ago.

It has a 27" blued .45 cal octagonal barrel, brass furniture, double set triggers and brass patchbox. The rate of twist appears to be 1 in 34, although the bore is badly rusted and getting the rod to turn smoothly was a chore. The percussion lock is case hardened. The checkering on the wrist was done by the owner.

Anybody familiar with this model?

 

[Jim Buchholz]

Thats a Seneca not a Hawken.Think of it as a scaled down version of the Hawken that was made in .36 and .45 cal. TC dropped this gun from production some 20 or so years ago. Its a prize catch for TC collectors.

 

[jtmattison]

That's pretty cool.

Have fun with it.

It looks to be in great condition.

HD

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Yep that's a Seneca. It's a pretty good facsimile of a mid nineteenth century New England half stock rifle and well worth putting in shooting order.

 

[mykeal]

Russ T, Dawg and Smokey -

Thanks, gentlemen! Seneca completely slipped my mind. I haven't seen one in years and it just didn't register. I kinda knew it wasn't a Hawken, but that's all I could think of.

I hope to be able to restore it. Exterior is excellent everywhere, except the checkering is a bit amateur. The owner is an accomplished wood carver who does some stunning bird carvings; this was his very first attempt at checkering a stock in his early days, and it doesn't do him justice. Unfortunately the barrel bore is in very poor condition and I'm not too sure I'm going to be able to save it. I've got about 5 to 6 hours polishing in it and still have some bad rust pits. I'm intentionally going very slowly and gently because this is going to be one of those just barely usable bores if I can save it. I'm glad I agreed to do it now that I know it's a Seneca.

 

[Emet Huntsman]

Seneca alright. Wanted one when I first got into BP shooting -- I like the clean lines and simpler brass than the Hawken sported. Good find. SHould be well worth putting back into action :thumbsup:

 

[ronrryan]

Sometimes nasty bores shoot far better than they look. Proof in pudding, etc. Good luck, good smoke, Ron

 

[Mad Professor]

I think TOTW was selling breech plugs to fit the seneca. I'd give them a call and see if they could fit up a 13/16 GM barrel to one.

 

[musketman]

Thats a Seneca not a Hawken.Think of it as a scaled down version of the Hawken that was made in .36 and .45 cal. TC dropped this gun from production some 20 or so years ago. Its a prize catch for TC collectors.

I agree, I think the Seneca was one of the most beautify crafted muzzleloaders Thompson Center ever made. The only thing I ever disliked about T/C was that they never offered a flintlock version of the Seneca rifle.

 

[Mort Scott]

Can you explain the diffrence in a Hawkens and the senica. They look alot alike, eould like to now at a quick glance like you fellarshttp://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/skins/ForumOne/icons/question.gif

 

[thumper50]

Back about 1975 or 76 I bought aTC hawken .50. A pal of mine bought a seneca .45. The 1st year Mich had a MZ season. They both shot better than the shotguns at the time. HE KILLED A NICE 8PT that fall. Took me a couple of yrs to get my 1st w/mz. Been using them ever since. Mine was stolen about 5 yrs ago. But still using mzs. Bought a slightly used .45 hawken this summer. It drives tack w/80gr goex 3f and 240gr maxis!! Been carrying dads old renegade w/a 1/28 gmb. shooting big cast lead conicals. Can't get a deer close enough yet this yr. Take the time to clean it up. Should be a fine shooter!! :wink:

 

[mykeal]

Seneca has patchbox, no middle finger rest on trigger guard, cheek rest is squared off, top of comb is sharper angle.

Hawken has no patchbox, trigger guard has middle finger rest, cheek rest is rounded off, top of comb is smoother, without the peak

 

[MikeChapin]

Seneca has patchbox, no middle finger rest on trigger guard, cheek rest is squared off, top of comb is sharper angle.

...

The Seneca also has a 13/16" barrel. It also has the small T/C lock that is only found on the Seneca, Cherokee and Patriot pistol. It also has the 12-28 thread nipple as opposed to the 1/4-28 on the Hawken.

 

[Dave K]

The Hawken does have a patch box. The quickest way for me tell from a real quick glance is the nose cap. I don't have one to measure, but the Seneca is about 3/8" wide and the Hawken is about 1 1/4" wide. Those that have the gun in hand and a measure can tell me exactly what the measurement is. I will always wonder why, but it seems as if there are more Seneca's with bad rusty barrels than with good barrels.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

The Seneca is also nearly two pounds lighter than the Hawken and in .45 caliber they pack the same punch. Senecas are much rarer too.

 

[mykeal]

The Hawken does have a patch box. The quickest way for me tell from a real quick glance is the nose cap. I don't have one to measure, but the Seneca is about 3/8" wide and the Hawken is about 1 1/4" wide. Those that have the gun in hand and a measure can tell me exactly what the measurement is. I will always wonder why, but it seems as if there are more Seneca's with bad rusty barrels than with good barrels.

Admitting brain death: I didn't realize that T/C Hawkens had a patch box, which is pretty dumb. I have two; one is a standard .54 cal Hawken; the other is a .50 Custom Hawken XXV in .50 cal. I used the .50 cal Custom to compare with the Seneca, and it does not have a patch box, but the standard .54 cal does. There are significant differences in the barrels as well; the Custom .50 has a 15/16" barrel, while the standard .54 has a 1" barrel. What it amounts to is there are T/C Hawkens and then there are T/C Hawkens. For comparison, the .45 cal Seneca barrel is 13/16", significantly smaller and lighter.

Nose caps: good point. The Seneca nose cap is much smaller (as is the nose of the forestock); it measures 7/16" front to back, and the ramrod entry thimble is a separate piece of brass below the nose cap and inlet into the forestock. The Hawken nose cap (on both guns) measures 15/16" front to back, and it doubles as the ramrod entry thimble; the forestock is thicker in the nose than the Seneca's.

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

mykeal,

Good luck with the restoration project! Slow is indeed the best way to go :thumbsup: . Just a quick thought: You might want to try a little Shooter's Choice overnight soak in that bore. If any leading took place down in the grooves, the Shooter's Choice might lift it (and some of the rust with it) making the task at hand just a little easier :wink: . This technique worked for a friend of mine that shoots in the league that my son and I belong to.

Good luck and Happy Thanksgiving :hatsoff:

Dave

 

[shdwlkr]

Folks I have two seneca's one wears a scope the other is orginal and it took me 30 years to get the second one as they don't show up much on the for sale shelf.
I am a died in the wool TC traditional muzzle loader shooter and don't look for others as I have had good luck with all 4 of them that I have and am always on the lookout for a good buy on another especially the seneca's and cherokee's