Older PA Hunter Accuracy Update.

[Ironwood]

Just about one month ago I started a thread asking what the twist of an older Thompson Center Pennsylvania Hunter was. I had just shot the rifle for the first time and was very dissapointed by the awful group I got.

I got the information I needed about the rate of twist and lots of good information about what I could do to imporve the accuracy of the rifle. Well I would like to thank all of those that made suggestions. I'd also like to thank the guys from the Builders Bench for the suggestions they made.

I've been doing some shooting over the past month, trying new patches, lubes, powder charges, and powder. I've noticed a slow improvement in the group size. As someone said, it had gone from a pattern to a group. This morning I got a chance to run out to the range before the sun got up. I was pleasantly surprised at the first three shot group,off the bench, at 50 yards. I haven't been trying to sight her in. I've just been going for a group. It didn't take that ol' Texas sun long to get hot this morning. I'll do more work on sighting her in next time out.

 

[sfruhwirth]

Just read your old post and thought I'd add my two cents.

Looks as if your group is coming arround.
However:
I might look at a lighter load or heavier patch possibly, it appears your patches are beggining to fray and i wonder if your loosing something there. :imo:

I shoot goex fffg 70 grain, with .018 pillow ticking patch.

Here's my T/C story:

Must say i'm partial to the P/H just because that was my first muzzle loader back in '87.

I still own mine and have had very good luck with it, but things did start out rough.

After first purchasing... I couldn't group anything and after a week or two I noticed as I was cleaning that it was somewhat rough at the spot where the rear sight was tapped for mounting. Obviously I was tearing my patches all to heck with any powder charge over 50 grain fffg goex. I contacted T/C and they replaced barrel imediately.. Great customer service!

After that I never looked back. Still use it as my main hunting gun, took two nice deer with it last year. It will shoot good groups out to 100 yards pretty easy, but then again most guns can always shoot rings arround the guy holding the gun!

Good luck and keep us posted.

:front:

 

I was just surfing the site and noticed the patches. We all look at our patches and I agree. The patches need to be thicker. Too thick they are hard to load. Too thin they frey or burn through. With a roundball, I have used old bluejeans and pillow ticking soaked with melted crisco and it works fine. It finds its own size if you get the feel of it being snug and not have to pound it down. It's messy, a rag or handtowel hanging off the back pocket works great.I have shot one hole groups with square patches and over large patches at 75 to 100 yds, they come right off. Have fun! Don't take it too serious and you will, with time, have a tack driver. So cut some patches that will surround your ball and soak them in microwave melted crisco. Put in baggie and go out and experiment. Some here have said the red or pink pillow ticking at Walmart works well. :m2c: I use a .562 round ball in a .58. I had a TC .50 flintlock in highschool and won every challenge from the guys with thier Father's hunting rifles. I was a hippie (1971) and it made the upper class jocks so mad!. And they didn't pay off!!!!. They just stomped off to the family bussiness. I left my '65 Dodge van and put 20 years in the Fire Dept. Shooting and trading BP the whole time. I wan't to be that kid again. Bottom line. Your ball is to large to take a thicker patch. I can't find my .50 mold so I can't tell you what to use, but it will be the most popular mold sold for the .50. :relax:

 

[JOHN L. HINNANT]

Greetings Ironwood,

Looks like things are progressing nicely for you, but looks like your patches are coming apart; looks like the weave is a bit too coarse.

I would suggest trying a tighter weave patch material; maybe matteress ticking or a good tight weave pillow ticking.

Best regards,

John L. Hinnant

 

[davy]

Just about one month ago I started a thread asking what the twist of an older Thompson Center Pennsylvania Hunter was. I had just shot the rifle for the first time and was very dissapointed by the awful group I got.

I got the information I needed about the rate of twist and lots of good information about what I could do to imporve the accuracy of the rifle. Well I would like to thank all of those that made suggestions. I'd also like to thank the guys from the Builders Bench for the suggestions they made.

I've been doing some shooting over the past month, trying new patches, lubes, powder charges, and powder. I've noticed a slow improvement in the group size. As someone said, it had gone from a pattern to a group. This morning I got a chance to run out to the range before the sun got up. I was pleasantly surprised at the first three shot group,off the bench, at 50 yards. I haven't been trying to sight her in. I've just been going for a group. It didn't take that ol' Texas sun long to get hot this morning. I'll do more work on sighting her in next time out.

Hello folks this is a reply from John Hinnant, as he cannot post pictures yet... ::

John Hinnant wrote...

" Greetings Ironwood and all:
I recently commented about the weave of your patching material being too course ... IMHO. Here is a picture of my favorite patch material, that I have commented about in other postings. It is 100% cotton, of a type known as Egyptian cotton.

Notice the tight weave, and after hot water washing, and drying on a high heat ... it measures .018 in thickness. This material has worked well for me in a variety of different barrels for thirty plus years. All of my barrels have been rifled for patched round ball, with grooves running 10-12 thousands deep, and various grooves width.

With this one material it has been neccessary only to find the right ball diameter. The majority of my barrels are 50 cal. And depending on the barrel, ball sizes of .495, .498, and .500 produce match grade accuracy. This patch material is even the choice for my .58 cal bench rifle.

Regretfully this material is no longer available in my San Antonio, Texas area. I think if you can find it, and try it .. you will be as pleased with it as I am.

I am of the opinion that within reason, it is more important to properly select patch material, and then, select the appropiate ball size to this material, than the other way around.

Since I know this question will be asked, I will answer it now ... my number one preferred lube material is Teflon, the patch material is sent to Jerrys Archery Shop, and they apply the Teflon for me. Jerrys requires the material to be washed, dryed and cut to specified yard length.

Note: the material will shrink when washed and dryed ... so cut to 38 inches initally to compensate for shrinkage.

My second and third lube choices are Young Country 103, and OxYoke Wonder Lube. Since I cut my patches at the muzzle, after washing and drying the material, it is cut into 36 inch long strips, cut along the blue dots seen in the photo of the material, lube is then applied to the strip, and is then rolled tightly, and placed in an air-tite container to be used later.

Of special note: I place the container of patch material in the car to capture the trapped heat to help melt the lube and evenly distribute it throughout the material. Since this material is in an air-tite container, there is minimal loss of patch moisture. And South Texas IS known for its nice warm days!

Hope this information will prove helpful ...

And thank you Davy for posting this.

Best Regards

John L. Hinnant"
:results:

 

[Ironwood]

WEZ, I actually thought the patches were holding up quiet well. My thinking is that the fraying is taking place once the ball leaves the barrel. The parts of the patches that came in contact with the barrel and powder are still intact. I could be wrong about that. As far as being any thicker those .022" 100% cotton canvas patches, cut from material purchased at Wal-Mart, seem to be about as thick as I can go and still get the ball to go down the barrel. As it is there is considerable force required to get the ball started. The .018" 100% Cotton Pillow Ticking patches didn't hold up well at all in the TC.

The .018" Pillow Ticking patches work very well in my CVA St. Louis Hawken. However, the CVA has been fired several hundred times compared to the less than 100 for the TC.

John, The next time I'm in Wal-Mart I'll check for that material. One can never have to much patch material. I'm not promising I'll have it Teflon coated or cut at the muzzle.


Once again I'd like to thank everyone for the great help you have given me.

 

[JOHN L. HINNANT]

Greetings Ironwood,

The recovered matteress ticking patches look much better than the other material. Those patches have the classic, "look right" condition when all related factors are right. The sealing looks good, there is no cutting, blow through in the center, fraying, or coming apart,

You might now try experimenting with different ball sizes now; .495, .498, .500.

One factor that gets ovelooked in patch selection is a certain degree of, "softness", of the material. It is this factor that gives the fabric the ability to fill the rifling grooves without wrinkling. Finding material of the right thickness, but is tough with the right degree of softness is usually a difficult search.

One of my reasons for preferring the Teflon coated patching is the extreme ease with which it loads. It is easy loading personified. Nothing else comes even close. This of course allows a ball to be loaded with a minimum of deformation.

My wife's 50 caliber Browning prefers a .500 ball, but she can not load it without using teflon coated patching. It loads that easy.

Now, I do not advocate that Teflon is the only way to go for everybody, but after you find your most accurate ball and patch combination, try your material with teflon coating. You might like it for the loading ease. Ask my friend Davy about the difference.

It is absolutely necessary to wipe the bore between shots when when using teflon coated patching (no bore butter or similiar lube), and that seems to put off some shooters on the forum. And please folks, that is not meant as an insult or has any hidden meanings.

If you read my last post closely, you will notice I like Young County 103 and OX-Yoke Wonder-Lube.

Best regards abd keep up the good shooting,

John L. Hinnant

 

[brubincam]

how do you teflon coat your patches? it would be nice to use non sloppy patches....been using crisco.... :thanks:

 

[davy]

Hola Brubincam ...

I am a newbie at this .. but as I have had it explained to me ... they spray the Teflon on with some type of special equipment to get an even coat and ... then use some type of drying process. What I do know after using it a few times, is like John H. has said .. it is a major improvement in ease of loading compared to the other lubes I have used. It is some smooth to push down the bore for sure, slick as a whistle!

You can buy it pre-done or send your own material off and have it done. I do not know of a home method that is easily, effectively, and efficiently done. ::

Davy

 

[JOHN L. HINNANT]

Greetings Brubincam,

Davy is correct about the Teflon application.

Because of the extra expense, I always recommend a shooter work out his most accurate and patch combination first using Young County 103 lube first. Second choice is OX-YOKE Wonder Lube 1000.

While I cannot prove it, I believe the YC 103 contains more lanolin thereby making the patch slicker.

Prepare your material as described above. So far as loading with a strip of patching and trimming, this should not be a problem. After all you are most likely doing you testing at a range with a bench, not in the hunting field.

For detailed information about preparing the material for Teflon coating, I detailed that in another post. Hope you will not mind looking that up. With my two finger typing, I really do not want to type that again.

You can probably guess that I am very partial to a particular material. I send this to JERRY'S ARCHERY AND MINUTE MAN SHOP for Teflon coating, It does not save me any money, but I have my favorite material Teflon coated.

JERRY'S sells Teflon coated material in three different thickness. They are fine people to deal with and have always treated me quie well. Their telephone number and address is listed in MUZZLE BLAST magazine and in one of my previous post.

Once again, work out your best ball and patch combination before investing in Teflon coated material. I also think you will like the YC 103 OX-YOKE 1000 better than mixing a home-made concoction.

Best regards and good shooting,

John L. Hinnant

 

[davy]

Greetings Brubincam,

Davy is correct about the Teflon application.

Because of the extra expense, I always recommend a shooter work out his most accurate and patch combination first using Young County 103 lube first. Second choice is OX-YOKE Wonder Lube 1000.

While I cannot prove it, I believe the YC 103 contains more lanolin thereby making the patch slicker.

Prepare your material as described above. So far as loading with a strip of patching and trimming, this should not be a problem. After all you are most likely doing you testing at a range with a bench, not in the hunting field.

For detailed information about preparing the material for Teflon coating, I detailed that in another post. Hope you will not mind looking that up. With my two finger typing, I really do not want to type that again.

You can probably guess that I am very partial to a particular material. I send this to JERRY'S ARCHERY AND MINUTE MAN SHOP for Teflon coating, It does not save me any money, but I have my favorite material Teflon coated.

JERRY'S sells Teflon coated material in three different thickness. They are fine people to deal with and have always treated me quie well. Their telephone number and address is listed in MUZZLE BLAST magazine and in one of my previous post.

Once again, work out your best ball and patch combination before investing in Teflon coated material. I also think you will like the YC 103 OX-YOKE 1000 better than mixing a home-made concoction.

Best regards and good shooting,

John L. Hinnant

Here is the address info I was given a while back ...

THE MINUTE-MEN
7785 Hoy RD.
Fredricksburg, OH. 44627
Ph. 303 695 2910

Davy

 

[CoyoteJoe]

You are right, your patches are holding up quite well. Never mind the fraying around the edges, that area is not in contact with the bore and is to be expected from the coarse weave canvas. I've a friend who is so fond of that canvas that he ordered a whole roll of it from Wally World in fear that someday he may not be able to find more. He gets one hole groups at fifty yards from several rifles, .36, .45, and .50 caliber, all are Green Mountain barrels and all with that same canvas patch.
Only problem with your group is "what happened to the other two shots?" Three shots is not a group, it's just three shots. Once you know what you, your gun and your load can do, then three is enough just to check your sights, but three shots is not enough for load development.
Unless, of course, the first three are really poor, then five won't make it better, so scratch that load and don't waste time and powder, but over all, five shot groups are a much more honest indicator. :m2c: