on 'thread counters', etc....

I was amused to have been lumped into the 'thread counters' and pc nazi camp in the ERA thread above, which rapidly deteriorated into name calling...I have complained of them myself!....but there were disturbing comments made about 'them and us', cliques, etc. on this board that I think need to be addressed. I then said that there was no 'us' group, but maybe I was wrong. There certainly isn't any conscious organized clique of thread counters here--most of us have never even met each other...each of us are into MLing for our own reasons, but maybe there are two broad groups: (1) those that are mainly interested in hunting and shooting MLs and (2) those that mainly are interested in the history and reenacting or buckskinning. The groups overlap. Then there are the newcomers who are looking for guidance into (1) or (2). I do not see these groups as antagonists. Obviously some do, from the comments in the ERA thread. With few exceptions, the group (2) folks do not belittle the group (1) folks or their gear. The problems seem to arise when a newcomer or old group (1) fellow asks about period correctness or when a group (1) fellow pipes in on a group (2) discussion or vice-versa. For example (I am not picking on TC, but it comes up often)a newbie will ask what period the TC Hawken represents--and roundball will be quick to correctly say 1970s--and one or more group(2) guys will go into how it doesn't work for whatever reason. TC Hawken owners get riled (except roundball, who loves his TCs for their intrinsic merits and cares less what the group(2) is up to. Many people want to get into group (2) activities and don't have the cash or yet the knowledge to acquire PC stuff. Many buckskinners just want to tote their TCs or CVAs to a rondy and have fun. They resent the historical details brought up by the group (2) bunch: takes the fun outta it. Well, for many group(2), the details are the fun! Most spend years studying the details of history far beyond the textbook history to 'get it right' as far as possible. It is not for everyone. Both groups are right, which do you want to be? It does no good to name call or try to be devisive. Each to his /her own. But if you ask a question about historical accuracy, expect to learn, expect to have some of your preconceived opinions bashed, expect controversy. It is not a 'them vs us' thing. Or at least it shouldn't be. I have been offended by PC nazis myself--generally know-it-alls who don't. I am still on the learning curve. You learn by listening, reading, doing. I get on this site for escape, relaxation, learning--tapping into the ideas and experiences of dozens of good people, group (1) or (2) who post here--and I wouild hate to see it truly break into camps calling each other names....if it does, I am outta here! :yakyak: :m2c:

 

[CrackStock]

Mike,

I agree with you, but the problem is that this is a recurring need. Maybe you should write a good FAQ to address this so that we can point to it and slay the beast once rather than having the newcomers' feathers ruffled by those who have become tired of answering that same question.

CS

 

[Runner]

For those that ask. Most that get told did not.

 

[jim gray]

I compliment the "clique" on your patience and general refusal to participate in the name calling and personal criticism that took place in that thread. I hope you know that most of us do enjoy reading what you have to say and try to learn from your posts.

For the most part, (I don't remember reading any threads where you guys resorted to name calling) you guys (the aforementioned clique) should commendable restraint and a great deal of civility.

 

For those that ask. Most that get told did not.

Runner, who (no, strike that, no personalities)what/where/how were you offended? You clearly think that there are the "thems" and "us'ns" from your comments above and ERA thread. Let's discuss your grievances and straighten them out. I have no axes to grind (well, actually I kinda like axes and own several). Anyway, why just keep taking potshots--what is your particular problem?

 

[adbranaman]

My personnel opinion is keep the book learning in the class room (so to speak) and when you get out in the field enjoy yourself. Most "tourist" don't have any idea what a real reeactor looks like anyway.Whats a real" Hippie" look like? I've tryed to join or start a group on several occasions, but so-in- so only wants pre-1840 and so-in-so only wants something else.The rest of the world doesn't label us that way.Most think we're a bunch of Boy Scouts that never grew up(I know I am).I've wanted to start a broad ranged club,but quickly re thought that idea when I saw how badly ya'll got along with the in-liners.Now I find that even the pre-1840's crowd(in my area)don't get along to well either.Whats up with that?Nobody well say ,so I've given up on the idea.I don't remember all this cat-a-wallin 20 years ago,but then I just did what I wanted back then. :imo: :relax:

 

[roundball]

I don't remember all this cat-a-wallin 20 years ago,but then I just did what I wanted back then. :imo: :relax:

Al Gore's Internet was not in as widespread use back then as it is now!
:crackup:

 

we have been over this subject many times. there is a difference between buckskinning/rondys/good ol'boys having fun and historical reenacting. The 'having fun' crowd pretty much lets anything go. I go to rondys that say pre-1840, but allow TC Hawkins and partial outfits. We all have fun and don't go around critiquing anyone. BUT, a true historical reenactment is taking the classroom into the field! Why the objection to learning? to teaching? the historical reenactors try to be period correct not only for themselves but to 'teach' the touristas/visitors what is was really like (as close as we can come to it). A station hunter in Kentucky in 1770 did not wear Levis and Justin Ropers and tote a Hawken. A French Marine at Ft St Jean Baptiste in 1740 did not carry a Pedersoli/Cabelas flintlock or wear a polyesther/cotton blend shirt. You certainly can understand that? The sewing machine was invented in the first half of the 1800s, so the real PC nazis 'count stitches'. But, Beth Gilgun, noted author of books/articles on period clothes was once asked how to best copy the fine even stitches of the best seamstresses of the 18th century; her answer: use a sewing machine. I reenact and wear only period correct materials, but many of my seams are machine stitched. I would be criticized by the more PC nazi element. I admire the handwork, just can't sew worth a darn myself. But I have done the research and know what is correct as far as can be known. I try to put that knowledge into practice. Even at the 'having fun' events. I can have fun in my PC linen and centerseam mocs and early style custom rifle while some others are having fun in modern leather and with their CVAs..... :m2c:

 

[Runner]

I was offended because someone posted something that several of us have been waiting for, and the entire thread was destroyed by squabbling over which book by whoever is correct. It happens all too often here, and it is not a personality or group issue. If someone got that badly out of bounds on the topic of a post anywhere else on this forum, they would be warned at least. You have me building a gun with no input at all because of this BS. This one says this, and those three argue with him, while these four say it was this way and will not ev en talk to the middle three! If the parts are all correctly assembled, the gun shoots well, and it fits me, the rest you guys can argue until you drop. Just don't tell me about it. In fact, if someone compliments me on it being correct, I am gonna change it. You guys make being correct have a bad taste.

 

[bnail]

Bluebuck, it's just the group as an entity trying to identify itself. Just look at the different renaming attempts over the past few years: Reenacting, Trekking, Historical Interpreting, and Living history. Whereas, with the Rendezvous crowd, the buckskinners are content to just be buckskinners; they attend Rendezvous, fellowship and have a great time within the range of their interests.
The reenactor crowd (and I would include the AMM in this group)has always been more interested with recreating various aspects of different eras. I for one want to use what the old ones used, and I want to experince what they experienced. I deliberately place on myself, and myself alone, stringent guidelines concerning the authentication of material culture, manners and habits of historical people, and all the other minutia concerning historical recreation. it's a labor of love that takes up much of my time reading, researching and discussing with like minded people the various aspects of historical characterizations.
I can't just "leave the books in the classroom" because these are journals, diaries, traders' manifests, and military orders that flavor my pursuit.
I've seen too many people (good and fine humans who would give you the shirts off their backs, so I mean no disrespect) who are content to be merely costumed campers. there's nothing wrong with that, but I want a more indepth experience with history.
These two factions have been at odds since this all began, so this dichotomy is nothing new, and I will not take sides.

 

Runner, I have no idea what you are talking about. If you have a specific question about building a gun there are several places where you can get expert advice, for example here on the gun building section, or the gun building section on American Longrifles site, or on the Muzzleloader Mag Campfire site. If you are talking about acorn finials that was pretty well covered on the ERA post, although some folks chose not to listen to the expert(s)like Mike Brooks. What kind of gun are you building and how did all the BS in the ERA post affect it?

 

[thomas]

Why must you keep trying to start an argument? Can't you just let it go?

Thomas

 

Why must you keep trying to start an argument? Can't you just let it go?

Thomas

Huh? and exactly how am I trying to start an argument? What should I be letting go? I am trying to be constructive here. I am still mystified by all these angry folks, must be getting old....exactly what is your complaint?

 

[thomas]

No, I won't play your game! It's time you stopped.

Thomas

 

[Runner]

Mike, it isn't one post. It is dozens with the same result every time. They fall into the, Well I am so and so, so you should listen, or, after all my years, or, so and so said so in their book. Most of us don't care. The value of the ERA post was in information to add perspective to other information already delivered. The finial did not even figure in. I don't care if it has an apple finial on the lock! In fact, I believe that all those that limit themselves to attempting to copy others work are wasting their time. I did not say my problem was lack of info, altho the same question has not been answered three times now about that gun. My problem is that there is no guide other than listening to the squabble and choosing one of many sides. Most of us don't spend more on books researching a gun than we do on the gun itself. We are much too worried about function, accuracy, lock speed, and finding the best load for the purpose to worry about the end of the trigger guard pleasing someone else. I am putting an outfit together for the simple reason that it is expected and I don't want to disturb those into the history thing. I am there to shoot and compete. I shoot, compete, and then hunt with my guns. I have asked history questions and am very grateful for the answers. The key being I asked. The jumping all over a small detail like happened in that thread is not justified at all, especially when you and your sources don't even agree on who is right. The majority concensus all agreed that a surviving sample had to be altered, a fake, or had someone engrave it at a later date because it would make them wrong. In other words. thoughts and speculation have replaced reality, and those thoughts and speculations are based on a very small sample. You can't brown a gun in a certain time period even tho there are printed ads for browning from that time period and personal records showing requests to have it done. A Hawken is not proper despite documented transport and sales of the guns. The Leeman guns were mostly caplock, the Leeman guns were mostly flintlock. Crazy fanciful reasons why the barrels got longer. None of it makes sense, even if we all cared. When you take it into a thread and take it over with this crud time after time, it gets old. Sorry, maybe it is just me, but I don't think so. For me, all that was posted added not a single thing to the review of the gun and stopped further discussion of the actual gun and how it functions.

 

[robinghewitt]

Let's not run the risk that either of the Mike's might up sticks and go back to forums where they are more appreciated.

I know no-one is indispensable, apart from Musketman and Claude, but perhaps some are less dispensable than others.

 

[bnail]

Mike, It seems folks are just out to get ya regardless.
We can quote sources 'till we're blue in the face but if no one want to read 'em, then what good did we achieve. You keep it up this thread, and I'll talk your ear off. And, if I may make a suggestion, I'd take advantage of that ignore button, it's saved me a lot of frustration thus far.

Chreers

 

No, I won't play your game! It's time you stopped.

Thomas

still mystified.

 

[Runner]

Mike asked the questions in this thread. So far no one has done anything but answer him.

 

[HardBall]

I am still mystified by all these angry folks, must be getting old....exactly what is your complaint?

Did I miss the sign-up sheet for "beat up on Mike day" or what???

:kid: