I've never shot PRB because of the rifle I currently own, a TC 50 WMC which has a very fast twist. Any way I do plan on purchasing another rifle in the future probably a 54 desinged for PRB. My question is will an OP wad betwwen the patch and roundball increase performance as it does in many conicals?
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OP wad for PRB?
- Thread starter Wink
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If you are blowing patches an OP wad might help. This happens with heavy black powder charges sometimes.
I won't try to speak for anyone else, but I have found 80 grains of 2f under a .54 prb to be a darn nice deer load, and you probably won't be blowing patches at that charge.
I won't try to speak for anyone else, but I have found 80 grains of 2f under a .54 prb to be a darn nice deer load, and you probably won't be blowing patches at that charge.
longcruise
70 Cal.
If you do find yourself "blowing" patches, the OP wad is more of a half measure than a real solution. If you are blowing patches the first things you need to address are; Crown condition, bore condition (roughness), patch thickness and/or strength, the tightness of the load (controlled by patch thickness or ball size).
When all of those things are working, you will not need an op wad to protect your patch regardless of the load. This is just my opinion and you will find many differ in theirs.
As far as accuracy goes, I've no idea. How much diff did it make with your conical loads?
When all of those things are working, you will not need an op wad to protect your patch regardless of the load. This is just my opinion and you will find many differ in theirs.
As far as accuracy goes, I've no idea. How much diff did it make with your conical loads?
I'm one who uses an Oxyoke prelubed wad over powder for all my deer hunting rifle loads in all calibers.Wink said:
It has always tightened up the groups some, and just back in May I chronographed loads with and without a wad.
Standard deviation averaged around 25 fps just using a lubed pillow ticking patch, but dropped to an average of only 6 (six) fps with an OP wad.
I read a lot here and digest things.
I observe the loading techniques at major matches, Phoenix and Brady and do not see competition shooters using over the powder wads.
If they were the difference between using wads and not using wads to achieve, 9s, 10s and 10Xs, I would think that major competition shooters would be using them.
Just an observation, never saw a bench rest shooter using them either.
But, if you shoot better with them, that is what it is about.
RDE
I observe the loading techniques at major matches, Phoenix and Brady and do not see competition shooters using over the powder wads.
If they were the difference between using wads and not using wads to achieve, 9s, 10s and 10Xs, I would think that major competition shooters would be using them.
Just an observation, never saw a bench rest shooter using them either.
But, if you shoot better with them, that is what it is about.
RDE
longcruise
70 Cal.
Hah! You have thrown down the gauntlet in the face of a Master Skeptic!! :haha: Testing will go to the top of my experimental shooting list. Results to be in by.... oh, lemme see here, .. November 2008!
:grin: I haven't thrown down any gauntlet...my posts are about me and my first hand experience but we constantly need reasons to go to the range so test away.marmotslayer said:
I've also tested Hornady GP hollow based bullets with & w/o Oxyoke wads in spite of the skeptics saying you can't because they'll wedge into the base or some such worries...they worked perfectly of course.
And lastly, I've also tested TC's .45cal/255grn flat base maxi-hunters with and w/o Oxyoke wads and they were also excellent.
But enough of this...off to the range with you...
(remember, the norm is that dramatic reductions in SD = increased accuracy / tighter groups)
:thumbsup:
Big John
45 Cal.
Wouldn't shoot competetion without them! 60gr. of 3f,.495 RB,.020patch and over powder wad. Tightens group and cleans bore.
jtmattison
70 Cal.
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A wad can help tremendously in some barrels. For instance my new GM roundball barrel for my T/C Hawken shoots single hole groups at 50 yards with a wad over the powder. Without the wad the groups open up to about an inch to an inch and a half. Not a significant difference I suppose but noticeable for sure.
HD
HD
longcruise
70 Cal.
Fine, have it your way! I'll admit that the gauntlet is only from my own perspective.
Now, that's another thing worth testing. Dave Minshall and the Long Range Bunch will agree with that, but I wonder how important it is at practical round ball ranges, say out to 100 yards or so?
IMO, for general shooting probably not all that important...for example and this is only a hypethetical for the sake of discussion....say 3" down to 2"...but it's not anything drastic like 3" down to 1/2"...but an obvious enough improvement that I decided to use them for all my full power hunting loads to get the benefit of a little tighter group and also to serve as a firewall to protect the patch, because I use max/near max charges of Goex 3F for deer hunting.marmotslayer said:
Interesting thing about those Oxyoke prelubed wonderwads...they are supposed to provide an improved 'seal' of the gases which results in the dramatically reduced SD and that clearly seems to be the case...however, I surmised that if the wad was making a better gas seal, ie: less or minimal or no gas leakage, then pressure should be greater and velocity should increase as well.
BUT...my chronogrpah showed just the opposite...using wads did bring the SD down to only 6 fps which is fantastic, but the average velocity slowed about 25 fps...I still am so shocked about it that I'm going to re-run the exact same test, same caliber, same everything...I just can't connect the dots in my head...that an improved gas seal which reduces SD so much, yet does not also increase velocity
:shocked2:
I might have an answer to your dilema. If any of the products or reactants involved in a chemical reaction are gases, the rate of reaction will decrease as pressure on the system is increased. Since it is the gases from the combustion reaction that propel the ball, an increase in back pressure (better seal by the wad) could slow the reaction (slightly) and then give a lower velocity.
longcruise
70 Cal.
Back around '95 or '96 I tested a thing called a Maxi Patch. It was a plastic base wad with a short skirt to serve as a gas seal. It was reputed to do all kinds of things. It would improve velocity, shoot cleaner, improve accuracy, etc. Well, my tests for velocity and accuracy did not bear them out. I shot extensively with a .50 TC hawken 1/48 twist with 370 maxi balls over 80 grains of ff both with and without the plastic patches. There was no increase in accuracy and average velocity fell of about 15 fps. SD did not change and was around 8 with and without the Maxi Patch.
BTW, the Maxi Patch was from Butler Creek and was marketed at the same time as their "poly Patch" which was a skirted plastic cup used to replace a cloth patch. Interestingly, the poly patch shot with great accuracy using both my .50 and .58 caliber rifles. The market for those was killed by rumors that the ball would come loose from the cup in the bore and create a dangerous pressure situation. I was never able to get one to come loose. Even so, using the more traditional cloth patch was way more appealing and that is what I continued to use. Still have some of those Poly Patches in the bottom of a one of my shooting boxes.
At about the same time I participated in a shooting board that included ml. Resident there was a renowned writer with Precision Shooting magazine. When he started delving into muzzle loaders he began to make many extrapolations from modern firearms to ml guns. One of the things he claimed was that placing a NECO "P" wad under a conical in his .50 TC produced much higher velocities. A "P" wad is a round wad about 3/32 thick cut from some kind of plastic and was quite popular with BPC shooters. Based on his analysis (he never chronographed them! :shocked2: ) he persuaded NECO to make .50 and .54 caliber P wads. I acquired some in both calibers and set off for the range and reshot the same test as I had done with the Maxi Patch. Same exact results. No change in accuracy and a slight drop in velocity. Still have some of those P wads in the bottom of my box too.
Never tried them with round balls and maybe I will when I test the felt wads.:hmm: can you just comment back to clarify.....it's not clear to me if you're speculating that might be the case or if you're stating a fact that it is the case.....and I don't know enough about all that to know one way or anotherOldnamvet said:
I'm simply speculating based on my knowledge of chemistry and chemical reactions. What I said about the rate of chemical reactions involving the evolution of gases being slowed by pressure is fact. Experimentation involving comparing pressures along with the velocity would be required. Getting the velocity would be easy -- measuring the pressure developed during firing would be a bit more tricky.
longcruise
70 Cal.
That doesn't seem to apply to gunpowders, be they modern or bp. It seems the opposite in that increasing the weight of a pojectile over bp seems to increase the pressure and also increase the efficiency of the powder.
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