Original 1863 springfield

[Tumblernotch]

The barrel bands are one pc. They have springs that hold them in place. Does this help ID the rifle?

Solid bands with springs were on the M1863 Type II, made in 1864-65. The Type I had clamping bands patterned after the P53/3 Enfield. This type of band was also found on the M1861 Colt Special rifle-musket.

The Colt musket utilized designs from both the M1861 Springfield and the P53 Enfield. However, it was not interchangeable with either. The M1863 Type I was similiar to the Colt, the most obvious difference being the shape of the hammer. The Colt hammer was very similiar to the Enfield, whereas the Type I and Type II hammers were bevelled.

The clamping bands on the Type I tended to loosen after repeated firing and the armories went back to using the solid bands with springs.

You obviously have a mixed parts gun, but it doesn't affect the shooting of it. If you want to restore it to its original configuration, I would see which model it conforms the closest to. From what I see from the pictures and your description, I'd go with the '61. Original bands used to run about $20 apiece (probably higher now). Did you examine the ramrod channel to confirm what model the stock is? A M1855/61 stocks channel will be a little wider between the front band and the nosecap. This accomodated the swelled section of the ramrod and is where the ramrod locked in place. There shouldn't be a ramrod spring in this stock. If there is, it's located in the bottom of the barrel channel between the breech and the lower band. The '63s had one. Also, most likely, you may have a '63 ramrod on your piece. I've seen several '61s with these.

There have been controversies and discussions about selling parts guns and restored guns over the years. If you do restore all the proper parts on it and decide to sell it, I can only say let your conscience be your guide. Most guys like me would probably have no problem, first of all because very few muskets survived the War without some part being replaced unless they were never issued. Secondly, high end guns that sell at a premium are the ones that collectors get real persnickity about. They had better have all their original parts. On the other hand, there are some who are very picky even about low-end guns. And really, we should be, up to a point. Even if we pay just a few hundred dollars compared to thousands for a premium gun, we don't want to be misled about it and want to get our money's worth. But, enough of that.

Look closely at the various parts and see if you can get an idea of how long ago the parts were mixed. If it appears to have been done many years ago (perhaps CW period), you may want to keep it like it is.

I think you've got a pretty nice piece there that will give you a lot of pleasure. Just make sure the barrel is safe and not corroded bad around the breech and check your stock and see what model it belongs to before you start buying parts. So far, you have mostly a '61. (Bands and ramrods are a lot cheaper than barrels!) Enjoy and let us know how things turn out!
:thumbsup:

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

It sounds fixable. Many were bored smooth after the war to be used as shotguns. They can be re-lined and returned to service easily.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

I remember hearing tales of Bannerman's Arsenal and Store as a boy. Being able to go back in time and browse through their inventory would be a dream come true. The old Stoeger's store would be another great place to visit.

 

[nathanbowenarrow]

Dont know for sure but the ramrod channel appears to be a little wider starting at the nose cap. How would a check for the spoon in the stock? I have taken the bbl out and not noticed anything. The ramrod is straight with no swelling.
Thanks
Nathan

 

[Tumblernotch]

The ramrod spring lies in a mortise in the barrel channel. It is pinned to the stock and the curved part of the spring bears against the ramrod through a hole that exposes the ramrod channel. I've seen some springs that just lie in the mortise and are held in place by just the barrel. It gets the name spoon by its shape. If you didn't see a spring, but just a mortise, it could simply be missing. If there is no mortise, then what you have is a M1861 stock. The ramrod apparently is a replacement for a '63 rod. One of the '61s that I owned had a reproduction '63 ramrod with it.

Looks to me like all you need are '61 bands and a swelled end ramrod.

 

[nathanbowenarrow]

So what would be a fair value for this musket?
Thanks
Nathan

 

[Tumblernotch]

I'm seeing M1861 Springfield marked muskets going for between $1,100 and $8,500 at various dealers. I couldn't put a price on yours, but I can tell you that I found one on a dealer's website that doesn't look as good as yours with an asking price of $3,350. However I must add that yours doesn't have the proper original bands and you're missing the swivels. And some dealers tend to ask ridiculously high prices.

I'm no expert on gun collecting, but I do know that serious collectors are willing to pay well, but the gun needs to have all original parts and show no signs of overzealous cleaning to get a premium price.

If you had the right bands and the swivels and since the barrel, lock and stock are in such good shape, yours would probably fall into the $1,000-$2,000 range. A good bore will help if you sold to a shooter. Some collectors could care less about the bore, some do.

Don't take my word on this. I'm basing this on past experience and haven't kept up with the trade. Your best bet if you're interested in selling is to get with someone who is active but who will be impartial. In other words, someone you can trust who won't try to rook you out of your gun for less than it's worth. But I do believe what I gave you will at least get you in the ballpark as to it's worth. I personally would shop around for bands and restore it and if the bore is good, try 'er out. If the bore is bad, order a barrel from Hoyt or Whitacre and go that route. These guns are a lot of fun to shoot and if you like to deer hunt, they do a good job.

 

[nathanbowenarrow]

I had put it up for sale for 1600.00 and thought that that was a good price. If I do keep it and shoot it I have some questions. I can still see the rifling but there is some pittting in the boe. If for whatever reason I cannot get good acuracy from the gun as is should I have the bbl lined or just buy a new one? Either way I think I would go through Hoyt.
Nathan

 

[Trot]

Matching parts is very important in these. Matching date on lock and barrel, good cartouches are also. I have sort of been shopping for a M1861 and have found pretty decent shootable ones with matching parts and decent bores for $1600 and up from a major dealer. I would think yours would be substantially less for the mixed parts. I would think $1000 or a little more is about it. Hoyt or Whitacre would definitely be the way to go to line the barrel.

 

[nathanbowenarrow]

Well the rifle does have a good cartuche. I will pull the bbl tonight and check for the spoon in the stock.
Nathan

 

[Tumblernotch]

If the barrel is in good shape but the rifling doesn't cut the mustard, re-lining would be the best. I know some shooters who want to keep the original barrel as it is and still want to shoot, so they buy a whole new barrel. One reason for this is they often have a different front sight installed for target shooting and they don't want to mess up the original barrel.

I forgot to add yesterday that a good legible cartouche will add to the guns value. Also, if the date of maufacture on the barrel matches the lock date, that's great, but doesn't necessarily mean too much if they are successive years. There can be an overlap, especially if the musket was assembled at the beginning of a year. Let us know if there is a spring in the stock, I'm curious!
:thumbsup:

 

[nathanbowenarrow]

The stock does have a spoon in it to hold the ramrod. I have decided that I am going to sell it. I will probibly lower the price some since the gun is not all matching.

 

[Tumblernotch]

You can still get a pretty good price for it. Someone can either use it for parts, or get the parts to make it all match or just leave it as it is and use it for shooting. Everyone has their own ideas. If I had the same situation and decided to keep it, I would simply change the bands and ignore the ramrod spring and just enjoy shooting and looking at it. But that's me. If you get a decent price for it you can put that money towards something you'll be more happy with. And that's what it's all about.
:thumbsup: