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WANTED Original Hawkin.

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I think a lot of us get hung up on how much these cost, and how seldom they come up for sale. We forget that there are individuals who actually own, buy, and sell these, and I believe the OP is asking a serious question. I think, with a name like @2001guns , the OP must be a collector who has a pretty good idea of what he is getting into, and he is casting a wide net in posting his query on this forum. The OP may just want "an original Hawken," or he may have some specific type in mind. We don't know.

I am not part of any sort of "inner circle," but I expect there are a number of Hawken collectors out there who know each other, as @rich pierce suggested in post #14. Maybe get in touch with Phil Meek of GRRW Collector for some suggestions on whom to contact.

If I were seriously looking, I would also haunt the auction sites... daily. Some nice ones do come up for sale now and then. This fine old S. Hawken half-stock was sold by Heritage Auctions for $22,500 in 2017:

S. Hawken Detail.jpg

I saw this one on the Rock Island Auction website, but failed to note the selling price and now I can't find it again:

RIA Hawken 1.1.png


It is my understanding the J&S Hawkens of any configuration are rarer and therefore more dear than the "classic" S. Hawken half-stocks. I think a lot of the later S. Hawken-marked rifles were actually built by Watt or Gemmer, who apparently acquired the Hawken name (and S. Hawken stamp) when they bought the shop. Also, not all of the original Hawken rifles made it to the present day in one piece. This one was restored by Robert Browner, and sold for $20,000 in June. 2022:

Invaluable - S. Hawken restored by Browner.png
It was listed on the Invaluable website. The seller's notes indicate Mr. Browner restocked the rifle and replaced the ramrod pipes and barrel wedges, but everything else is evidently original. I think it could easily pass for all-original, although the seller tells us up front that it was restored. Nobody knows Hawkens better than Mr. Browner, and if it were me, I would be happy to own this one, and cheerfully acknowledge that it is a restored original. It's still a Hawken, and the selling price was about half (or less) what you might pay for one that is all-original.

Another category to think about, for collectors, might be high-quality reproductions. The GRRW Collector website referenced above can provide a lot of information about this. However, some might be overlooked. If you have read Baird's and Woodfill's Hawken books, you have probably heard of T.K. Dawson, who operated a one-man shop and built meticulously crafted Hawken rifles in the sixties, at a time when there was no Track of the Wolf or Pecatonica Longrifles to provide parts. I would think his rifles would have collector value in their own right. This T.K. Dawson Hawken was sold through Rock Island Auctions just last month for $4,406. The estimated price was $1,800 - $2,750, so there probably is some demand for these. Compared to the original St, Louis Hawkens, though, this one was a real bargain, and realistically, there are probably fewer Dawson "Hawkens" than there are originals.

2024-01-22 (1).png

One final thought might be to contact museums, such as the Museum of the Fur Trade. They sometimes sell items from their collections if they have duplicates and need the money. Might be worth a shot.

Good luck, sir! If you find one, I hope you'll show it to us!

Notchy Bob
 
I think a lot of us get hung up on how much these cost, and how seldom they come up for sale. We forget that there are individuals who actually own, buy, and sell these, and I believe the OP is asking a serious question. I think, with a name like @2001guns , the OP must be a collector who has a pretty good idea of what he is getting into, and he is casting a wide net in posting his query on this forum. The OP may just want "an original Hawken," or he may have some specific type in mind. We don't know.

I am not part of any sort of "inner circle," but I expect there are a number of Hawken collectors out there who know each other, as @rich pierce suggested in post #14. Maybe get in touch with Phil Meek of GRRW Collector for some suggestions on whom to contact.

If I were seriously looking, I would also haunt the auction sites... daily. Some nice ones do come up for sale now and then. This fine old S. Hawken half-stock was sold by Heritage Auctions for $22,500 in 2017:

View attachment 287738

I saw this one on the Rock Island Auction website, but failed to note the selling price and now I can't find it again:

View attachment 287741


It is my understanding the J&S Hawkens of any configuration are rarer and therefore more dear than the "classic" S. Hawken half-stocks. I think a lot of the later S. Hawken-marked rifles were actually built by Watt or Gemmer, who apparently acquired the Hawken name (and S. Hawken stamp) when they bought the shop. Also, not all of the original Hawken rifles made it to the present day in one piece. This one was restored by Robert Browner, and sold for $20,000 in June. 2022:

View attachment 287750
It was listed on the Invaluable website. The seller's notes indicate Mr. Browner restocked the rifle and replaced the ramrod pipes and barrel wedges, but everything else is evidently original. I think it could easily pass for all-original, although the seller tells us up front that it was restored. Nobody knows Hawkens better than Mr. Browner, and if it were me, I would be happy to own this one, and cheerfully acknowledge that it is a restored original. It's still a Hawken, and the selling price was about half (or less) what you might pay for one that is all-original.

Another category to think about, for collectors, might be high-quality reproductions. The GRRW Collector website referenced above can provide a lot of information about this. However, some might be overlooked. If you have read Baird's and Woodfill's Hawken books, you have probably heard of T.K. Dawson, who operated a one-man shop and built meticulously crafted Hawken rifles in the sixties, at a time when there was no Track of the Wolf or Pecatonica Longrifles to provide parts. I would think his rifles would have collector value in their own right. This T.K. Dawson Hawken was sold through Rock Island Auctions just last month for $4,406. The estimated price was $1,800 - $2,750, so there probably is some demand for these. Compared to the original St, Louis Hawkens, though, this one was a real bargain, and realistically, there are probably fewer Dawson "Hawkens" than there are originals.

View attachment 287781

One final thought might be to contact museums, such as the Museum of the Fur Trade. They sometimes sell items from their collections if they have duplicates and need the money. Might be worth a shot.

Good luck, sir! If you find one, I hope you'll show it to us!

Notchy Bob
Thank you for your detailed response.
I have a modest collection of antique guns and also I have been into old cars all my adult life.
About my response "as long as it's reasonable", I looked at what I would sell one of my collectable cars for. That's usually around the mid $20K to $35 K. I have a buyer for one of my cars so I figured I'd just sell a car and find a Hawken. What happened to the price of the Hawkens after the movie about Jeremiah Johnson, is similar to the price of a '32 Ford coupe after the movie American Graffiti featuring a little duce coupe.
I will keep looking. Museums are a good place to start.
Thank you all!
 
Looking at the pics of the originals posted above and noticed something I have overlooked thus far, how low the front sight blade is and the corresponding low rear sight. It seems to me most replicas have notably taller sights.
Then again, it seems every time I look at pics of originals I see some other little nuance not commonly seen on reproductions.
 
I'm not in the market, but if I were, I would be hiring a known knowledgeable top Hawken collector to aid me in ensuring that whatever I'm considering is truly an original from the Hawken bros. Would hate to spend that kind of ching to find out I had been duped. I would not trust an auction company alone.
 
As far as cars go, I just watched some of the latest Mecum auctions on classic cars and there seems to be people with very deep pockets. I saw a Corvette go for $810,000. Surely those people wouldn't have a problem buying an original Hawken. In fact, they could buy several and have change left over.
 
Don't understand collecting. I like things that I can use and enjoy. The problem is I collect so many of those I don't have time to use and enjoy them. :doh:
I get that it's not for everybody, but I get it.
I'm obsessed with anything wild west. I want to eventually own some six-guns from the period, both cap and ball and cartridge revolvers.
They might get taken out with extremely mild loads and shot every great now and then.
To me the pleasure would be looking at and handling something like a civil war issued Army or Navy revolver and thinking of the possibilities. What battles did it see? What stories could it tell?

An original Hawken would be amazing.
 
Back to Kelvinator on the front and rear sights. That is always something I look for when someone says they have an old rifle. Low sights don't get hung up in the shrubs or in the blanket case, also they only shot a few times in a row so heat from the barrel would not obscure the sights. At Rendezvous we usually shoot 25 to 40 rounds in a short period and higher sights are an advantage. Just my 2 cents worth on that (but keep putting those 2 cents in a jar and someday you will own a Hawkens). steg49
 
More interesting stuff on the Hawkens rifle, this by Old Bill Williams in 1849. "Six of us (mountain men) traded our Hawkens rifles for Sharps rifles brought in by emigrants. The barrel of Hawkens rifles made good substitutes for crowbars". From "The Hawken Rifle its place in History. I live in the gold country, so I'll be checking all the old crowbars for Hawken stamps. :ghostly: steg49
 
Good luck on your search! I loved seeing the pictures of the original Hawkens. Thanks to all who shared them. I am also a collector, though a Civil War collector. My main interest is what they fought the battles with, the muskets, carbines and handguns, though I also collect uniform buttons, bullets and cartridges to go along with the guns, belt and box plates, artillery shells and autographs. I am finishing the book "Five Tragic Hours, the Battle of Franklin." Just last night while reading I stopped to look through one of my autograph binders at the furlough for a soldier signed in January 1864 by A.P. Stewart and Henry Clayton, two generals at Franklin I just read about. To me it adds to the reading experience to look at a relic from the war or an old piece of paper who someone you are reading about signed. I have a 1964 Impala and a 1964 Impala SS, both white 2 door hard tops. Maybe the OP has my dream car, a 1964 Impala SS hardtop with a 409?
 
Last edited:
those were Hawkens, OP is looking for a Hawkins. or am i wrong.
No. Your statement is correct.
The problem is of course iether ignorance or not being able to spell the builders name correctly, as I believe you know.

Blitz P.S. There now I have stuck my foot in it!
I recal a statement made by the kids in school that were the offspring of the Dust bowl emigrants to California when I was a kid. They often said( I may be ignorant, but I am not stupid ) and rightfully so.
spell check usually works!

Blitz
 
As a guide price, here's one original Hawken sold from back in 2009, price realized was $37,375. Prices will have certainly gone up since that time.

https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/47/1237/exceptionally-rare-s-hawken-st-louis-plains-rifle
I could get a nice JEEP for that money! The world of original Hawken's is a small one, with specialist collectors and researchers always sniffing them out. I'd have a real high-quality modern replica made! Good luck, though! It's always fun to imagine a closet or attic revealing a real treasure!
 
I think a lot of us get hung up on how much these cost, and how seldom they come up for sale. We forget that there are individuals who actually own, buy, and sell these, and I believe the OP is asking a serious question. I think, with a name like @2001guns , the OP must be a collector who has a pretty good idea of what he is getting into, and he is casting a wide net in posting his query on this forum. The OP may just want "an original Hawken," or he may have some specific type in mind. We don't know.

I am not part of any sort of "inner circle," but I expect there are a number of Hawken collectors out there who know each other, as @rich pierce suggested in post #14. Maybe get in touch with Phil Meek of GRRW Collector for some suggestions on whom to contact.

If I were seriously looking, I would also haunt the auction sites... daily. Some nice ones do come up for sale now and then. This fine old S. Hawken half-stock was sold by Heritage Auctions for $22,500 in 2017:

View attachment 287738

I saw this one on the Rock Island Auction website, but failed to note the selling price and now I can't find it again:

View attachment 287741


It is my understanding the J&S Hawkens of any configuration are rarer and therefore more dear than the "classic" S. Hawken half-stocks. I think a lot of the later S. Hawken-marked rifles were actually built by Watt or Gemmer, who apparently acquired the Hawken name (and S. Hawken stamp) when they bought the shop. Also, not all of the original Hawken rifles made it to the present day in one piece. This one was restored by Robert Browner, and sold for $20,000 in June. 2022:

View attachment 287750
It was listed on the Invaluable website. The seller's notes indicate Mr. Browner restocked the rifle and replaced the ramrod pipes and barrel wedges, but everything else is evidently original. I think it could easily pass for all-original, although the seller tells us up front that it was restored. Nobody knows Hawkens better than Mr. Browner, and if it were me, I would be happy to own this one, and cheerfully acknowledge that it is a restored original. It's still a Hawken, and the selling price was about half (or less) what you might pay for one that is all-original.

Another category to think about, for collectors, might be high-quality reproductions. The GRRW Collector website referenced above can provide a lot of information about this. However, some might be overlooked. If you have read Baird's and Woodfill's Hawken books, you have probably heard of T.K. Dawson, who operated a one-man shop and built meticulously crafted Hawken rifles in the sixties, at a time when there was no Track of the Wolf or Pecatonica Longrifles to provide parts. I would think his rifles would have collector value in their own right. This T.K. Dawson Hawken was sold through Rock Island Auctions just last month for $4,406. The estimated price was $1,800 - $2,750, so there probably is some demand for these. Compared to the original St, Louis Hawkens, though, this one was a real bargain, and realistically, there are probably fewer Dawson "Hawkens" than there are originals.

View attachment 287781

One final thought might be to contact museums, such as the Museum of the Fur Trade. They sometimes sell items from their collections if they have duplicates and need the money. Might be worth a shot.

Good luck, sir! If you find one, I hope you'll show it to us!

Notchy Bob
Excellent post.
 
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