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Original smoothbores?
- Thread starter ando009
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ando009 said:
Safety is particular with the gun. Do have it expertly checked. A friend, and member here, in England shoots originals all the time. The Internationals ML Assn. shoots only originals. How about a pic and more info? Good luck.
matt denison
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I have some shooters and I have some junkers. Each gun has to be considered a shooter or wall hanger on its own merits. Some were well taken care of, kept clean and stored properly. Some unfortunately weren't.
Most fella's don't shoot originals because if something breaks you can't get parts for it. Also why chance damage to an irreplaceable gun that has more value as a relic than a shooter.
I'm not saying that you shouldn't shoot your "fowler" only that you should look it over closely or have it evaluatd by a competent black powder gunsmith before you do.
Now, having said all that, there are a lot of guys shooting original double shotguns in flying clay competition and guys on this forum who hunt with those guns regularly. They are not rare or particularly valuable, they can be had much cheaper than a repro and if they function and are safe then why not.
Most fella's don't shoot originals because if something breaks you can't get parts for it. Also why chance damage to an irreplaceable gun that has more value as a relic than a shooter.
I'm not saying that you shouldn't shoot your "fowler" only that you should look it over closely or have it evaluatd by a competent black powder gunsmith before you do.
Now, having said all that, there are a lot of guys shooting original double shotguns in flying clay competition and guys on this forum who hunt with those guns regularly. They are not rare or particularly valuable, they can be had much cheaper than a repro and if they function and are safe then why not.
varsity07840
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As laffindog said, you have to decide if it has more value to you as a shooter or as a collector's piece. Did you buy it with the
intension of shooting it? If so, by all means have it checked out
by a gunsmith familiar with antique guns. I shoot a number of original U.S. military smoothbore and rifled muskets that were
bought for that purpose. However, only one has a barrel in its original state. The rest have been relined. Some have taken considerable time and effort to get them into shape. Parts are not too much of an issue since original and repro parts are available. Certainly, that would not be the case with your fowler, and if you have problems, especially with the lock you could wind up hanging the gun over the fireplace. Having said that, the nostalgia that comes with shooting an original is pretty neat. A successful hunt with one, for me at least, is still a real thrill.
Duane
intension of shooting it? If so, by all means have it checked out
by a gunsmith familiar with antique guns. I shoot a number of original U.S. military smoothbore and rifled muskets that were
bought for that purpose. However, only one has a barrel in its original state. The rest have been relined. Some have taken considerable time and effort to get them into shape. Parts are not too much of an issue since original and repro parts are available. Certainly, that would not be the case with your fowler, and if you have problems, especially with the lock you could wind up hanging the gun over the fireplace. Having said that, the nostalgia that comes with shooting an original is pretty neat. A successful hunt with one, for me at least, is still a real thrill.
Duane
I hunt with old originals all the time. Like many have said, it is the condition of the gun, that determines if it can be shot or not. I don't worry about breaking gun parts. After all, these guns were made before computers anyhow and if there is a something that needs repaired, there is no reason it can't be repaired or a part made to repair it. Many of these old guns were used in or on the edge of the frontier anyhow. If they can make it or fix it way back then, it should be much easier for us to do today.
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I too shoot originals. Agree with others here. Each gun has to be decided on it's own merits. It's often difficult to find just the right candidate to make into a shooter. Good enough condition to refurbish into a shooter, but not so good where it has larger collector value that you don't want to make changes that diminish that value.
As others here say, by all means have the barrel thoughly inspected - preferably unbreached. Some barrels are in good enough condition and have thick enough barrel walls, that burnishing can put it in shooting condition. BUT, if there is any question, you can always have a liner installed. And, there's that extra "nostalgia" you get when shooting an original.
This Forum has been a wealth of information, enabling me to get in contact with all kinds of gunsmiths. Many of them specializing in different areas such as barrel lining, lock repair/refurbishing, etc. The only problem I run into is the often long turn around time due to the high demand for their services.
Anyway, if you purcase the gun by all means please post pics!! It's always fun looking at originals. Rick.
As others here say, by all means have the barrel thoughly inspected - preferably unbreached. Some barrels are in good enough condition and have thick enough barrel walls, that burnishing can put it in shooting condition. BUT, if there is any question, you can always have a liner installed. And, there's that extra "nostalgia" you get when shooting an original.
This Forum has been a wealth of information, enabling me to get in contact with all kinds of gunsmiths. Many of them specializing in different areas such as barrel lining, lock repair/refurbishing, etc. The only problem I run into is the often long turn around time due to the high demand for their services.
Anyway, if you purcase the gun by all means please post pics!! It's always fun looking at originals. Rick.
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Originals all (well, most of)the way! Make sure of the integrity of the gun, especially the barrels, have it checked out by a knowledgeable smith (which can sometimes be a challenge), research it and get into the history of your gun and its maker. I guarantee you'll be hooked. Oh, and don't believe wholeheartedly the post that said all originals are cheaper than modern replicas. You might be lucky and get a beautiful ready-to-shoot original for a cheaper price than a modern replica (especially custom), most likely by an obscure maker, of which there are zillions! Nothing wrong with that, sometimes the research of a lesser known maker gives a satisfying chase, as well as a satisfying shooter. I have in a couple cases. But I admit I've spent loads more than a sane man would on some of my original fowlers by well known makers. C'est la Vie. The cold slab waits for all, and you've gotta have some addictions that make your life enjoyable! I'll see you in the woods and fields when the white smoke clears, amigos!
matt denison
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"Oh, and don't believe wholeheartedly the post that said all originals are cheaper than modern replicas."
That's not quite exactly what the post said.....
Just for conversation sake I have a double barrel Manton that I paid about fair market of $275.00. It's all there, no chips or wood missing, locks work perfect. Bores are rough but fine for a shot gun. A new Pedersolli double will cost three times that or more. Also have a no-name single barrel "hardware store" perc. shotgun that only cost $400.00 in near perfect condition, totally shootable. A comparable gun with the same ammenities (some silver, pewter etc.) would be custom and I'm sure over $1,000.00. These are not collectable (yet!) and not very valuable.
However a fowler of Grinslade caliber from the 1770's would be worth five figures and even a lowly trade gun in shootable condition is $3,000.00 up to perhaps $7,500.00 in shootable condition. Guns like that should be insured and stored in a safe, not beat around in the woods. MHO only of course. You could have Mike Brooks build a comparable gun for ..well, less than that.
Age, condition, rarity are what seems to make one gun valuable and another not so.
Describing a gun as simply a "fowler" means almost nothing, only that it is smoothbored. Is it percussion? or flint (twice as valuable) Is it really old - pre 1800? pre 1850? Imported or domestic? Only you know the answers to those questions and only you can decide if you should shoot it or not.
That's not quite exactly what the post said.....
Just for conversation sake I have a double barrel Manton that I paid about fair market of $275.00. It's all there, no chips or wood missing, locks work perfect. Bores are rough but fine for a shot gun. A new Pedersolli double will cost three times that or more. Also have a no-name single barrel "hardware store" perc. shotgun that only cost $400.00 in near perfect condition, totally shootable. A comparable gun with the same ammenities (some silver, pewter etc.) would be custom and I'm sure over $1,000.00. These are not collectable (yet!) and not very valuable.
However a fowler of Grinslade caliber from the 1770's would be worth five figures and even a lowly trade gun in shootable condition is $3,000.00 up to perhaps $7,500.00 in shootable condition. Guns like that should be insured and stored in a safe, not beat around in the woods. MHO only of course. You could have Mike Brooks build a comparable gun for ..well, less than that.
Age, condition, rarity are what seems to make one gun valuable and another not so.
Describing a gun as simply a "fowler" means almost nothing, only that it is smoothbored. Is it percussion? or flint (twice as valuable) Is it really old - pre 1800? pre 1850? Imported or domestic? Only you know the answers to those questions and only you can decide if you should shoot it or not.
Seems to me that comment could open up a whole nuther debate subject.
I've always taken the term 'fowler' to mean designed and intended for sporting purposes. This as opposed to utilitarian for trade, survival, etc.
Steve Tobler
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From Wikipedia
Fowler can refer to:
A hunter of wildfowl
a type of cannon
English or French fowler: A smoothbore flintlock, long barrel gun used with shot to hunt birds and small game, or loaded with buckshot or balls for combat in the Revolutionary War period.
Fowler can refer to:
A hunter of wildfowl
a type of cannon
English or French fowler: A smoothbore flintlock, long barrel gun used with shot to hunt birds and small game, or loaded with buckshot or balls for combat in the Revolutionary War period.
matt denison
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Rifleman said: "How about a pic and more info?"
Exactly my point. What is a "fowler" to one guy is a trade gun, shot gun, musket to another. Is a TC Renegade a fowler? Not in my book but I have heard them refered to that way. Is a Northwest Gun a "fowler"? I've heard them called that. I have a perc. single barrel shotgun about 1870 and one fellow who saw it said "nice fowler". So, without pictures or better description no one knows what the OP is really talking about. :surrender: :surrender:
To add complications the term should be "fowling piece". A "fowler" is the guy shooting it. :wink: :grin:
Exactly my point. What is a "fowler" to one guy is a trade gun, shot gun, musket to another. Is a TC Renegade a fowler? Not in my book but I have heard them refered to that way. Is a Northwest Gun a "fowler"? I've heard them called that. I have a perc. single barrel shotgun about 1870 and one fellow who saw it said "nice fowler". So, without pictures or better description no one knows what the OP is really talking about. :surrender: :surrender:
To add complications the term should be "fowling piece". A "fowler" is the guy shooting it. :wink: :grin:
Steve Tobler
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laffindog said:
From Wikipedia
Redirected from Fowling piece - Shotgun
A shotgun (also known as a scattergun and peppergun, or historically as a fowling piece) is a firearm that is usually designed to be fired from the shoulder, which uses the energy of a fixed shell to fire a number of small spherical pellets called shot, or a solid projectile called a slug.
hanshi
Cannon
English or French fowler: A smoothbore flintlock, long barrel gun used with shot to hunt birds and small game, or loaded with buckshot or balls for combat in the Revolutionary War period.[/quote]
This is the reason - correctly or not - I like to call my smoothbore a "musket". It has a sling but doesn't have a bayonet lug.
This is the reason - correctly or not - I like to call my smoothbore a "musket". It has a sling but doesn't have a bayonet lug.
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Sorry, laffindog, NO disrespect intended whatsoever. In fact, My old brain couldn't even remember the whole sentence, just latched onto part of it! Maybe it's because subsonsciously I feel so guilty about shelling out so much dough on these things that my brain was magnetized to it.
I must also add that you've certainly given really good advice in this thread which couldn't be challenged by anyone, least of all me.
Finally, I say if you buy 'em, shoot 'em or what's the point in the first place?
I must also add that you've certainly given really good advice in this thread which couldn't be challenged by anyone, least of all me.
Finally, I say if you buy 'em, shoot 'em or what's the point in the first place?
"or loaded with buckshot or balls for combat in the Revolutionary War period."
Evidently this tyep of gun had a very narrow time of usage in the past?
The use or missue of terminology quite often causes confusion and debate as the lines between the historical definitions and our modern ones have been mixed/crossed and tangled considerably, you would not find an F&I era person asking about a 20 gauge gun, one would though ask about a 28 caliber French gun which would shoot a ball of about .562 and have a bore size from .577 thur .623, we seldom talk in terms relevant to the designation of bore size of the replica type ML's we use today, this goes for many other aspects of the sport as well, it has become pretty much a hodgpodge of the old and new with reality somewhere in the mix. I am not so sure how much value a current dictionary source is when looking to the terms used in the past at times, as regional, global and applicational issues of the past may not all be considered.
Evidently this tyep of gun had a very narrow time of usage in the past?
The use or missue of terminology quite often causes confusion and debate as the lines between the historical definitions and our modern ones have been mixed/crossed and tangled considerably, you would not find an F&I era person asking about a 20 gauge gun, one would though ask about a 28 caliber French gun which would shoot a ball of about .562 and have a bore size from .577 thur .623, we seldom talk in terms relevant to the designation of bore size of the replica type ML's we use today, this goes for many other aspects of the sport as well, it has become pretty much a hodgpodge of the old and new with reality somewhere in the mix. I am not so sure how much value a current dictionary source is when looking to the terms used in the past at times, as regional, global and applicational issues of the past may not all be considered.
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