original wads!!

[Mike Brooks]

The 17th century and the colonies in specific were not part of the context of this thread Paul. They are 18th century documentations that were requested and given.

I am not trying to make a personal attack on you. I AM attempting to to discuss the original intent of this thread which is early to mid 18th century wadding techniques.

The information you had provided was not valid. I only tried to put the thread on track to it's original questions. The early techniques intrique me and it's a point of interest for me. You claimed no interest at all yet continue to post.

Much of what you write is readily absorbed by new shooters. The manner in which you present it is very convincing to the novice but many times the contents are laced with information that is simply not correct. None of us know it all. I usually run from those who imply to do so except when I see others taking in false information that has been presented as gospel.

If I have made an "attack" it was not directed to your "person" but to the dogmatic manner in which you have attempted to convince the "jury" of false information.

This IS a great website and I have learned much from many on here, including some things from your posts.

James

Bravo! :applause:
I'm fairly well convinced that cards were used by those that cared about hitting what they were shooting at as they are referenced above in the post by James that was dated 1767. A punch is an easy thing to make and I suspect you could buy them from any gun maker or hardware store back in those days. These cards were probably punced from paste board, felt from old hats or the old padding from under saddles as again referenced from James' earlier post.
One thing I have always been baffled by was the belled muzzle of alot of these big bored duck guns. I finally came across a reference that suggests they were using oakum as a "nest" for a large quantity of shot in these guns.
One thing I'll never believe after 30 years of shooting flint fowling guns is all the folk lore that revolves around using leaves, grass and hanks of tow for wadding. That stuff may have been used if you were way out in the boonies and lost your card punch, but no rational shooter would have stuffed that manure in his gun by choice on a regular basis. Take that grass stuffed load to the pattern board some day and see how it patterns. :rotf:

 

[paulvallandigham]

Hardware stores in 1750? Own your own punch? Drag it around over the mountains? With a stack of cardstock?

Okay, Mike. We all YOU know what you are talking about! :rotf:

Of course these guns' patterns were usually terrible. But then, so was the quality of powder used, as well as the shape and uniformity of the shot. NO?

I don't know about TOW's use over the mountains. I do know that small game was routinely taken in traps, and eaten. The skins were scraped of the fur, which could be used in lieu of TOW. The hide of any rabbit is very thin, but fairly uniform. Since the rabbit is a widely spread prey species, I believe it would have made a fairly good patching material, that was commonly available, and could easily be cut at the muzzle with a patch knife. Lubed with tallow, it would make an excellent patch, and could be reused if found most of the time. For hunters dealing in hides to take back to the settlements for exchange for goods and services, and money, I can't see any reason they would hesitate to Make Do with such skins for their patches. The fur might not do for cleaning, as TOW will, but it could make an effective OS wadding. IN lieu of Linen TOW, many plants and barks can be worked into stringy material to use to clean a barrel, just like you would use TOW.

Anyone familiar with how cordage is made, and how necessary cordage was for longhunters and explorers for constructing even an over night shelter, much less rafts, or boats to travel on rivers, and lakes, should have an understanding of the skills these early settlers took with them and their guns.

The one comment I have read repeatedly in old letters, and books of the early explorers is how close they could walk up to game without the game spooking, a state of affairs that ended rather quickly after herds were decimated by indiscriminate shooting, but represented how they found the new territories. I doubt anyone ever thought of making a 40 yard shot with a blunderbuss!

 

[Mike Brooks]

Of course these guns' patterns were usually terrible. But then, so was the quality of powder used, as well as the shape and uniformity of the shot. NO?

No. People feed themselves and others with these guns so they had to perform well. Lead and powder was expensive, they weren't going to waste it with a gun that they couldn't hit anything with.

I don't know about TOW's use over the mountains. I do know that small game was routinely taken in traps, and eaten. The skins were scraped of the fur, which could be used in lieu of TOW. The hide of any rabbit is very thin, but fairly uniform. Since the rabbit is a widely spread prey species, I believe it would have made a fairly good patching material, that was commonly available, and could easily be cut at the muzzle with a patch knife. Lubed with tallow, it would make an excellent patch, and could be reused if found most of the time. For hunters dealing in hides to take back to the settlements for exchange for goods and services, and money, I can't see any reason they would hesitate to Make Do with such skins for their patches. The fur might not do for cleaning, as TOW will, but it could make an effective OS wadding. IN lieu of Linen TOW, many plants and barks can be worked into stringy material to use to clean a barrel, just like you would use TOW.

Where do you come up with this crazy stuff? :youcrazy: Got any documentation for rabbit skin patches? :haha: By the way, we are talking about shooting shot here, not hairy patched round ball.

Anyone familiar with how cordage is made, and how necessary cordage was for longhunters and explorers for constructing even an over night shelter, much less rafts, or boats to travel on rivers, and lakes, should have an understanding of the skills these early settlers took with them and their guns.

And this relates to the thread how? :hmm:

I doubt anyone ever thought of making a 40 yard shot with a blunderbuss!

This thread has nothing to do with a 40 yard shot with a blunderbuss. The actual question is how they loaded a fowler in the 18th century. James and others answered the question with actual period documentation, not some misguided dreams of rabbit skins and how it might of been if you were a barefoot hillbilly lacking any knowledge of 18th century technology.. :haha:
I gotta hand it to you Paul, you can really pile on the BS and dream up some good stuff when you don't actually know the answer. :thumbsup:

 

[tg]

"I gotta hand it to you Paul, you can really pile on the BS and dream up some good stuff when you don't actually know the answer"

Now I don't care what anybody says, that's funny.
and God bless the pigmys in Africa, you know that the Pigmys did use BP to launch their darts from their blowguns,(pluged one end of the tube and drilled a vent hole back in the 12th century, this was probably the the begining of the "gun" developement period, the Dutch saw this and took the idea back to the lowlands, and in exchange showed the pigmys how to make fire, as they were quite far behind in tech. compared to most civilaizations and yet not yet mastered this basic human art for survival.

 

[roundball]

"I gotta hand it to you Paul, you can really pile on the BS and dream up some good stuff when you don't actually know the answer"

Now I don't care what anybody says, that's funny.

:hatsoff:

 

[paulvallandigham]

If any of you men had ever tried to research such trivia, you would not think this is so funny. Frankly, this kind of thing is NOT indexed, and finding references to how guns were loaded, and original wadding is more an accidental find, than the result of serious research.

That is why I thanked the gentleman who quoted from the 1760s letter or source on what was used. I have read about hunters using hides, and leaves, and other wadding, for both Round ball, and for shot, but never marked the reference, or made a separate index to the material, because it was not of interest to me to collect such data. It was treated as common knowledge back then, and still is. Comments from Brooks, Tg, and Roundball merely indicate to the rest of the readers who the true funny people are here! Thanks guys.

I will review the books I have in my personal library and see if I stumble across a source for the material I recall. Its more than 35 years of reading, however, and I can't even say the source is In my personal library at this date.

I ask again, "When is the last time you saw a written source about how to shave, or how to tie your shoelaces? If I find my sources, I will gladly find this topic, and post the information." These are rhetorical questions, gentlemen, asked only to point out that simply because something is not written down does not mean it was not done. Much of human experience is not recorded, or saved. Anyone who has done original research knows this.

 

[pmwest]

Excerpt from Advice from Aimwell by Thomas Paige 1767

...thin brown paper rubbed soft, and cut into pieces about one inch broad and two inches long; so that when it is once doubled, it is an inch square. I punch a small hole at the corner of each piece, put a sufficient quantity upon a key-ring, hang them into my button hole, and tear off one as I want it. This being doubled, put it into to the muzzle, and close the corners up about the rammer (the end of which ought to continue of the same bigness for at least half an inch, or rather somewhat smaller just at the end) and thrust the paper thus put into the barrel gently down upon the powder. Your rammer will come back without danger of drawing the paper back, and will leave it closed against the sides of the barrel like a half cartridge. Put in another in the same manner after the shot. When your gun is quite clean, it is necessary to put in a second wad after the shot, to prevent its getting loose.

I have seen other references to using this technique for loading a shotgun. One specifically talks about “blotter paper”, another says “any paper or material that will conform and holds its shape”. Has anyone tried this?

Interesting exchange of unfounded opinion indicating that the answer to my question is no? If that be the case then curiosity gets the best of me and I will have to experiment with this technique to see how it works. I am going to assume that the paper referenced is of different composition that would be readily available today. Most likely higher in rag content. I image that the closest that I could come would be a heavy weight brown paper grocery bag (and those are pretty rare) that has been well used. Off to the farm to shot some paper”¦.

 

[roundball]

The 17th century and the colonies in specific were not part of the context of this thread Paul. They are 18th century documentations that were requested and given.

I am not trying to make a personal attack on you. I AM attempting to to discuss the original intent of this thread which is early to mid 18th century wadding techniques.

The information you had provided was not valid. I only tried to put the thread on track to it's original questions. The early techniques intrique me and it's a point of interest for me. You claimed no interest at all yet continue to post.

Much of what you write is readily absorbed by new shooters. The manner in which you present it is very convincing to the novice but many times the contents are laced with information that is simply not correct. None of us know it all. I usually run from those who imply to do so except when I see others taking in false information that has been presented as gospel.

If I have made an "attack" it was not directed to your "person" but to the dogmatic manner in which you have attempted to convince the "jury" of false information.

This IS a great website and I have learned much from many on here, including some things from your posts.

James

Unfortunately, that's an all too common theme of his posts here on this public forum, laced with arrogance and often with errors and unsubstantiated claims...seems to think its his calling to correct others but can't stand it when his errors are pointed out to him. Newbies lap it up at face value because they're still learning and don't yet know any better...but they soon will...your post here is 100% accurate and on point.

:thumbsup:

 

[paulvallandigham]

The 17th century and the colonies in specific were not part of the context of this thread Paul. They are 18th century documentations that were requested and given.

I am not trying to make a personal attack on you. I AM attempting to to discuss the original intent of this thread which is early to mid 18th century wadding techniques.

The information you had provided was not valid. I only tried to put the thread on track to it's original questions. The early techniques intrique me and it's a point of interest for me. You claimed no interest at all yet continue to post.

Much of what you write is readily absorbed by new shooters. The manner in which you present it is very convincing to the novice but many times the contents are laced with information that is simply not correct. None of us know it all. I usually run from those who imply to do so except when I see others taking in false information that has been presented as gospel.

If I have made an "attack" it was not directed to your "person" but to the dogmatic manner in which you have attempted to convince the "jury" of false information.

This IS a great website and I have learned much from many on here, including some things from your posts.

James

Unfortunately, that's an all too common theme of his posts here on this public forum, laced with arrogance and often with errors and unsubstantiated claims...seems to think its his calling to correct others but can't stand it when his errors are pointed out to him. Newbies lap it up at face value because they're still learning and don't yet know any better...but they soon will...your post here is 100% accurate and on point.

:thumbsup:

Its so nice to know you don't every mistype anything, Roundball. Such perfection on your part had better look out for that other Mr. Perfect, Mike Brooks, as your two heads probably can't pass through the same doorway at the same time.

I mistyped 18th by typing 17th century. My apologies. I was thinking 1757 when I made that mistake. The original question was about what was done to load these guns in the Mid 1700s, and I assumed that the poster was asking about the USA in its colonial days. Catpn. James was kind enough to reprint a piece he found from 1727 that appears to be from English sources. Pheasants were not introduced into the USA until 1857, which is Mid-19th century, when the Industrial revolution was well under way, and all kind of goods and services were available throughout the East, as they had been in England back in the first quarter of the 18th century. By 1857, we had canals, and some roads for transportation. We even had some railroads on the East coast, and some in the midwest.


To the original poster and Captain James, I apologize for my tying. :bow: :bow:

 

[Mike Brooks]

I got news for you Paul, It isn't your typing skills people have a problem with. :shake: