Other than a Hawken.....

[Desert Ratxx]

Are Hawken rifles the only rifle that used a hooked breech system? I am specifically interested in a long fullstocked flintlock rifle. I have seen pictures of period rifles that look like they used barrel wedges to hold the barrel but I can't find any info on if they utilize a hooked breech with it. Dates and which side of the Missouri would be helpful but not critical.

Thanks :hatsoff:

 

[Grenadier1758]

For a variety of reasons I chose to make a Deringer rifle. This is a full stocked with wedges but there is no hook breech. There were a lot of the Pennsylvania rifles used during the fur trade. The Hawken while certainly a fine rifle came late to the plains. The Henrys, Lehmans and Deringer rifles were the most common with a host of other makers as well.

I based my pattern on the the Deringer drawings in the "Trade Rifle Sketch Book".

 

[Stophel]

Hooked breeches go WAAAY back. The "Lion" Bethlehem/Christian's Spring gun has one...though I am unsure of it's originality...

Here's an original German gun (or rather, what's left of one) from about 1760 with a hooked breech.[url] www.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Fatdutchman/Original Flintlocks/GermanFowler[/url]

Please forgive it's current less-than-pristine condition.


Doesn't have any real practical purpose, other than making it easier to stow a gun during travel.

A lot of American guns will have wedges to hold the barrel in (rather than pins), but it really is uncommon to see an American flintlock gun with a hooked breech.

 

Nice looking rifle.
One small correction. Hawkens were making rifles for the fur trade before Leman was done with his apprenticeship with Fordney. Plenty Hawken rifles in the 1820's and 30's RMFT and got even more popular in the 40's throughout the 60's. Long production and earlier than Lemans. Leman was the late comer to the fur trade. Henry's and Derringer's trade rifles were contemporaries of the Hawken Bros. rifles. The Hawken was no trade rifle. It was the cadillac rifle of the plains and the mountains. They were a lot more expensive than the trade rifles which were a mass produced rifle by the standards of the day. Hawken rifles were custom stuff.

The hooked breech goes way back and is found on american fowlers and longrifles in the late 18th century and even earlier in Europe as Dutchy has already stated.

 

[Desert Ratxx]

Awesome, thanks for all the info. I must admit I'm kicking this thought around (it occured to me while tramping thru the woods looking for mulies) for the small selfish reason of ease of cleaning. If I didn't have a deep love of the fullstocked flintlock I'd be a half stock shooter just because they are easier to clean. I'm not saying I'm going to do it, just good food for thought and it sounds like it would be something different and not totally incorrect for the fur trade.

PS I like the Derringer rifle, did you have to carve out the stock yourself or did you find a supplier?

 

Interesting stuff here. A couple of things to add here. I've seen several original Deringers and all I can remember were keyed and captured with standard breeches. Nice rifle Grenadier, don't see many people making those.

Cooner, I'd agree with just about everything you said, but would ask about your sources concerning the rifles made by the Hawken Bros. in St. Louis. I'm aware of some Maryland Hawkens from that time period, but they all look like standard fullstock Hagerstown guns. I've seen a few Hawkens and those with pattent breeches were all probably circa 1850 or later, in fact all were later than 1850. The Kollar Hawken has been dated by some to the 1830s and had a plugged vent hole. It had a standard breech.

I've always sorta wondered about the development of Hawkens. They've got a lot of European features that just 'show up' on St. Louis. Seems to me they were influenced more by imports than southern guns or Maryland.

Sean

 

[rich pierce]

There are a few original fullstock Pennsylvania or "Kentucky" rifles (often smoothbore guns made like rifles) with hooked breeches. Two that come to mind from Shumway's Rifles of Colonial America books are a Shuler Bucks County gun and an English styled rifle believed to have come out of NY state. Both were probably made 1780-1800.

There are too few early Hawkens to know what they looked like. We tend to try to figure backwards from what we see later and that's plain speculation. Probably Jake's work at Harper's Ferry gave him some ideas; he may also have seen some English rifles of the period and decided to incorporate what were "the latest improvements" blended into a buttstock style that locals favored. Total speculation on my part. Certainly the notion that the Hawken shop was a major supplier of rifles in the early years of the fur trade has been debunked.
The Hawken Rifle: Its Place in History by Charles E. Hanson Jr. is a good source,
rp

 

[Desert Ratxx]

keyed and captured

Does this mean that they used a standard type key and the key was pinned from underneath? What was the typical way to "capture" a key? I've seen the terms before but just guessed at what it meant.

 

[rich pierce]

The key has a slot in it and there's a pin in the barrel channel that keeps it from ever coming out all the way and getting lost. Downside- that key is waiting to exert leverage on the stock if something happens while the barrel if out of the stock, like snagging on something or if the stock falls down.

 

I've seen a few Hawkens and those with patent breeches were all probably circa 1850 or later, in fact all were later than 1850.

Sean - just one example albeit a half-stock - the Modena rifle (which you've seen in person) was made by the best judgment circa 1840-42 and has a hooked patent britch as does that fancy silver mounted one (I think I sent a pic to you) which is dated 1836. There are several others pre-1850 in Baird's book with patent britches - some hooked some solid.
All of the earliest extant Hawken Brothers rifles have either patent britches or brazed on lugs with long tang regular britches (IMO many of these may in fact be conversions akin to the Kollar rifle - but without taking them apart it would be hard to say positively).
BTW - Jake was in St. Louis by 1819 and yes he first partnered with Lakenan until 1825, but despite what Hanson says, I find it hard to believe that they didn't make guns since both were trained gunsmiths - Hanson's book is a good resource, but is FAR from complete and for the early days of the Hawken shop(s) there is just not enough info to make some of the "definitive" statements he made or that others have made on his limited research. Sam was in St. Louis by 1822 and had his own shop for three years before he and Jake partnered. Sam was definitely making guns prior to that 1825 date.

Desert Rat - even with a hooked britch I seldom have taken my rifles apart - in my experience there is just too much chance of breaking that thin fore end, especially on full-stocks...something to consider.

Oh yeah - Sean - got your email re: that pouch - we'll talk easier soon - easier than typing!

 

[tg]

Diederots (SP) encyclopedia shows a drawing of a hooked breechplug, I believe this is dated to the mid 18th century.

 

True enough that the Hawkens were not "major" suppliers to the RMFT. But they were not absent either, which is the reason for my response to an earlier post. Lemans were absent from the earlier RMFT. In other words, Leman was the late comer, not the Hawkens.

 

[Grenadier1758]

I carved the stock out of a plain blank that I found at clearance prices. I didn't feel too bad when the drill ran out of the stock. Set me back until I found the wear plate. I was amazed to see a Deringer in the museum at the Alamo.

Very few Hawken rifles can be dated to the early fur trade. Sam made a rifle while he was in Ohio. Very few flint Hawkens exist. They were one of the highest quality rifles made at the time. The simpler and more mass produced rifles were the common gun of the time.

Thanks,

 

I was amazed to see a Deringer in the museum at the Alamo.

Mike,

Shouldn't be surprised, as Deringer probably had the single largest rifle production of any private rifle manufacturer in the US between 1809 and 1840. He sold rifles to everyone from Indians to politicians. By the early 40's he was getting out of the trade rifle biz and focusing more on pistols due to heavy competition mostly from Henry Leman, but also from Henry and Tryon. Henry always struggled to get US contracts for the NDN trade and griped over the fact that Deringer held sway over the majority of that business.

Don and Chuck,

This is a little off track, but I'm not sure if I read Hanson's the same way some do. He said that most of their business in the early years was apparently blacksmithing and repairs and that the first documentation he had for a rifle coming out of that shop was 1831. I know that Sam put out rifles elsewhere before that and so did both Jake and his partner James Lakenan. I just don't think they put out very many in St. Louis before about 1830. We know that a lot of inexpensive trade rifles and NW guns got shipped into STL every year. Given the numbers of cheaper guns available, the Hawken shop evidently picked their market by going more up scale on rifles, and made good money on repairs and blacksmithing while they developed a name and a market for themselves with their rifles. It would be interesting to know when they started adding the hooked breeches. That, the English-type trigger guard attachment, and half-stocks seem to be the sort of high-end things they would add to distinguish themselves from the crowd of other builders pumping out rifles rifles in quantity from PA and MD at the time.

Sean

 

[Bill Bounds]

Hi:
The Baker rifles were hook breeched,used in the battle of new orleans 1812 or so by the British, & at the alamo in 36, I think the Mexicans used them there. I don't know if you would catagorize them as a long gun tho, I think the barrel was only 31".
Bill

 

Bill,

Don't know much about Bakers, but I believe the Mexicans were issuing 3rd model Besses to the rank and file at the time of the Alamo.

However, you are right that the English were the manufacturing whizzes of the early 1800's, and they carried off the hooked breech on a fairly large scale. While hooked breeches seem to have still been a bit of a rarity and high-end option across the puddle in the former colonies. These are the same guys who flooded the North American continent with good quality four dollar NW guns not to mention Avogadro's number of inexpensive, but good quality import flint locks. Pretty impressive fellows.

Sean

 

[Dphar]

If you constantly remove the barrel from a properly shaped full stock "kentucky" it will likely result in a broken forend. Does not take much to damage the long skinny piece of wood when the barrel is not there as a stiffener.

Dan

 

[Bill Bounds]

Sean:
You piqued my interest.A little google time turned up some info from Teaxas A&M. The Mexican Cazadores unit,80 or so, were supposed to be armed with the Baker rifle. No concrete numbers as to how many units had them. A Baker was unearthed by University Of Texas archeologists.
Bill

 

[Mike Brooks]

The english were doing hooked breeches in the 1720's. They probably learned it from the french.

 

[Desert Ratxx]

So what I'm getting here is that a "generic" rifle of the 1800's could possibly have a hooked breech, and the use of wedges was not uncommon at all.

Interesting food for thought. I apperciate the warnings to about the fragileness of the fore arm. I'm not going to be doing anything soon, I just wanted to get some ideas about features that I might want.