Ottoman Guns

[cyten]

Jeez, I made a stupid mistake there using an old scratched transparent ruler on my desk, when you said it's large I re-measured and it's actually 12mm! so only 10mm out!! I can't see far enough down the barrel and the endoscope camera won't go right down so no idea about the rifling,

I also was blown away when I saw 22mm, .86 caliber! 12mm seems small now. I wonder if the barrel is coned like mine? Perhaps yours is .47 at the muzzle and is a true .45? Mine measured .55 or .56 at the muzzle but when I slugged it, discovered it was a true .54 caliber.
I saw these original bullet molds in Turkey and had the seller measure them for me, from top to bottom were 17mm 16mm 15mm 11mm

Here is an interesting English sporting rifle with an 18th century Ottoman barrel built by William Davison of Newcastle

 

[VicN]

Hello Cyten,

maybe my barrels bore is slightly flared at 12mm but 11mm further down so would would be correct for one of those bullet moulds you showed? this would presumably allow the bullet to insert quicker when under fire.

In my vintage machine workshop I have some drawers of old measuring tools that possibly might go into the barrel and show a 1mm difference a bit further down so I'll have a look.

That sporting gun is superb, clearly the man who commissioned it knew the quality of a barrel like that

 

[rickystl]

Post #501:

Hi Cyten

For the most part, Eastern and Western bullet molds look similar. With the occasional strange one showing up.

That is a beautiful English sporting rifle. The barrel and decoration is a clue that this gun may have been commissioned for a customer of Ottoman/Turkish decent living in England. In later years, I've found this more common than I originally thought. Ottoman barrels were held in high regard in many areas of Europe for their quality and accuracy. Their barrels show up on sporting guns in many places.

Note the rear sight combination. That tall, rear piece at the back of the breech would typically be a graduated rear sight itself, in the traditional Ottoman/Turkish manner. But instead, that rear aperture is opened up to form a "hood" (I think that's what it's called) and a Western style, three-position rear sight added. Interesting. The three sights might be graduated for 25, 50, and 75 yards (?). Or the metric equivalent.

It's certainly a cool and interesting gun that appears in near perfect condition. Thanks for posting.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

Hello Cyten,

maybe my barrels bore is slightly flared at 12mm but 11mm further down so would would be correct for one of those bullet moulds you showed? this would presumably allow the bullet to insert quicker when under fire.

In my vintage machine workshop I have some drawers of old measuring tools that possibly might go into the barrel and show a 1mm difference a bit further down so I'll have a look.

That sporting gun is superb, clearly the man who commissioned it knew the quality of a barrel like that

Hi Vic

I've found that a slight swell at the muzzle is very common with Eastern market barrels. Both rifled and smooth bore. That's why I measure about 3 inches (8cm) down the bore, and again at the muzzle end to see if there is a difference. There usually is. It's to aid in loading as you suspect. But often, if the bore is heavily corroded, it can be tricky.

Rick

 

[cyten]

Post #501:

Hi Cyten

For the most part, Eastern and Western bullet molds look similar. With the occasional strange one showing up.

That is a beautiful English sporting rifle. The barrel and decoration is a clue that this gun may have been commissioned for a customer of Ottoman/Turkish decent living in England. In later years, I've found this more common than I originally thought. Ottoman barrels were held in high regard in many areas of Europe for their quality and accuracy. Their barrels show up on sporting guns in many places.

Note the rear sight combination. That tall, rear piece at the back of the breech would typically be a graduated rear sight itself, in the traditional Ottoman/Turkish manner. But instead, that rear aperture is opened up to form a "hood" (I think that's what it's called) and a Western style, three-position rear sight added. Interesting. The three sights might be graduated for 25, 50, and 75 yards (?). Or the metric equivalent.

It's certainly a cool and interesting gun that appears in near perfect condition. Thanks for posting.

Rick

I have found the Ottoman bullet molds take after the style of 15th/16th/17th century German examples.
Here are some examples of German bullet molds throughout those eras:

an illustration from 1460's

early 16th century

South German marked 1621

From the collection of the late "Matchlock" this example has a matching marking with a Landsknecht arquebus from the 1520's

Compared with the molds I posted earlier, as well as this Ottoman example & it's easy to see a connection!

As for the English rifle, as luck would have it, there is actual provenance! It was made for and belonged to Charles John Brandling, a member of Parliament of Newcastle.

It is interesting that they decided on a folding leaf sight and did away with the traditional "peep" sight. In this case, why keep any remnants of the previous rear sight? The hood does look cool though, lol.
There is a wheellock up for sale now that has an Ottoman barrel and going for big buck$$$

Hello Cyten,

maybe my barrels bore is slightly flared at 12mm but 11mm further down so would would be correct for one of those bullet moulds you showed? this would presumably allow the bullet to insert quicker when under fire.

In my vintage machine workshop I have some drawers of old measuring tools that possibly might go into the barrel and show a 1mm difference a bit further down so I'll have a look.

That sporting gun is superb, clearly the man who commissioned it knew the quality of a barrel like that

The flared muzzle does allow for quicker reloading for sure, and without the use of a "short starter" that so many American rifles use. If you have the means to measure further down, please do, inquiring minds and all. Otherwise you can use a lead fishing weight to slug the bore.

 

[VicN]

The flared muzzle does allow for quicker reloading for sure, and without the use of a "short starter" that so many American rifles use. If you have the means to measure further down, please do, inquiring minds and all. Otherwise you can use a lead fishing weight to slug the bore.

I had no luck finding anything that actually fitted inside the bore to test further down, I did however find a piece of 12mm steel rod and it only went in 3/4" and jammed so presumably it shows the bore reduces to 11mm

 

[cyten]

A gentleman just made a video demonstrating his Kabyle, loading, shooting, and some history (though not entirely knowledgeable on it). Thought it was interesting seeing someone actually shooting it. Video is HERE

 

[rickystl]

Hi Cyten

Thanks for the Link to the video. First video I've seen of someone loading/shooting an Algerian musket. First person I ever saw was....yours truly. LOL So cool to shoot these Eastern guns. I should have taken videos years ago. Thanks again.

Rick

 

[cyten]

Rick, It's never too late! Start filming, we'd all love to see these old girls spitting fire

 

[cyten]

I just came across these very interesting photos of gunsmith shops in Bethlehem. Like many of these areas, it was part of the Ottoman Empire from the 16th century till 1918.

 

[TobJohn]

I just came across these very interesting photos of gunsmith shops in Bethlehem. Like many of these areas, it was part of the Ottoman Empire from the 16th century till 1918.


View attachment 243150View attachment 243151

That is an amazing find! Thanks for sharing.

Not to be confused with the other Bethlehem steel works

 

[rickystl]

REF: Post #510

Thanks once again Cyten for the Period photos. It's difficult to imagine hundreds of small shops like this scattered throughout the Empire. I've read that often entire towns and villages were commissioned to make arms under contract to the Ottoman Empire. This differed with the large arsenals in Europe at the time in procuring arms. It's amazing these small shops would take the time to decorate their guns.

Rick

 

[TobJohn]

REF: Post #510

Thanks once again Cyten for the Period photos. It's difficult to imagine hundreds of small shops like this scattered throughout the Empire. I've read that often entire towns and villages were commissioned to make arms under contract to the Ottoman Empire. This differed with the large arsenals in Europe at the time in procuring arms. It's amazing these small shops would take the time to decorate their guns.

Rick

It seems like Europe and the Ottomans had the same system of gun production in the 16th century, with firearms built in towns and cities in mining areas or major trade hubs. Europe later transitioned to major state arsenals and centralized production, while for small arms, the ottomans maintained the old system longer.

 

[rickystl]

It seems like Europe and the Ottomans had the same of gun production system in the 16th century, with firearms built in towns and cities in mining areas or major trade hubs. Europe later transitioned to major state arsenals and centralized production, while for small arms, the ottomans maintained the old system longer.

Hi John

Yes, based on historical readings, that does appear to be the case.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

Not sure if I ever posted this one (?) Here is a beautiful Ottoman Empire style pistol. The chiseled and engraved lock with it's water-proof pan and fluted barrel are almost certain to be European exports. It appears to have been stocked/built locally and is all silver mounted.
When I originally purchased the pistol, it was suggested the gun might be Turkish or Moroccan. Perhaps. But my guess is that it was assembled at one of the better gun shops in the Balkans for an Algerian customer. My reasoning is that the wave-like silver decoration on the stock is very similar to the silver mounts popular on Algerian style muskets. Anyway, here are some photos. If anyone is interested, I can also post photos of both the barrel and lock off the gun.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

MORE PICS...

 

[rickystl]

LAST ONES...

 

[VicN]

A well ornamented gun, the silver tracery appears to be partly inlaid but pinned with nails to hold it in place

 

[rickystl]

A well ornamented gun, the silver tracery appears to be partly inlaid but pinned with nails to hold it in place

Hi Vic

YES. The silver decoration only partially inlet and secured with tiny silver nails. Also note the trigger guard is secured with nails rather than screws. All common build characteristics of Balkan made pistols.
Often, the quality of the inletting (for the lock, barrel, butt cap, etc.) is not quite up to their European counterparts.

Rick

 

[TobJohn]

LAST ONES...

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Do you happen to know how the fluted barrel is made? Is it just chiseled down the length?