Ottoman Guns

[VicN]

Hi Vic

YES. The silver decoration only partially inlet and secured with tiny silver nails. Also note the trigger guard is secured with nails rather than screws. All common build characteristics of Balkan made pistols.
Often, the quality of the inletting (for the lock, barrel, butt cap, etc.) is not quite up to their European counterparts.

Rick

Silver wire inlay requires undercutting the design so when the soft wire is inserted it's hammered to expand into the cut. Obviously that would not work with inlay such as on yours so it's nailed on. A very nice pistol.

 

[rickystl]

Do you happen to know how the fluted barrel is made? Is it just chiseled down the length?

Hi John

Good question. I don't really know. Today's muzzle loading barrels are machined from bar stock on precision equipment. But during the period, the barrels were forged. If I had to guess, the fluting was added sometime during the forging process. With any fine chiseling and/or engraving done latter. There's likely other Forum members that can address this question better than myself. Here's a pic of the barrel:

Rick

 

[TobJohn]

Hi John

Good question. I don't really know. Today's muzzle loading barrels are machined from bar stock on precision equipment. But during the period, the barrels were forged. If I had to guess, the fluting was added sometime during the forging process. With any fine chiseling and/or engraving done latter. There's likely other Forum members that can address this question better than myself. Here's a pic of the barrel:

Rick

View attachment 244722View attachment 244723View attachment 244724View attachment 244725View attachment 244726

Thanks for the additional photos! Coincidently, this parallels flint’s Bolek thread. If they were added while it was being forged, I could see it being chasing. Probably a Pukka or Rudyard question.

 

[rickystl]

Silver wire inlay requires undercutting the design so when the soft wire is inserted it's hammered to expand into the cut. Obviously that would not work with inlay such as on yours so it's nailed on. A very nice pistol.

Silver wire inlay seemed to be very popular with just about every style of Ottoman Empire guns. But this style of silver decoration on this pistol is more like overlay rather than inlay. And the one place I readily recall seeing this style is on Algerian muskets - if they have silver decoration. That's why I think this pistol was made for a customer of Algerian descent.

Rick

 

[PhDBrewer]

From what I understand... fluting was part of the "sculpting" process (along with engraving & precious metal inlay) done after the piece was assembled. Some of my highly sculpted barrels are oct on the bottom where it fits into the stock and round with a raised rib along the sight with raised sculpting where the maker desired. Can take photos later to show. I was told by many gunmakers to build the gun and engrave and finish after everything is fitted to not "bugger" up the fine detail.
Most "wedding bands" do not go all the way around the barrel. They are only on the top.

 

[cyten]

It's interesting that the barrel has a serial number

 

[rickystl]

It's interesting that the barrel has a serial number

I think this number stamped clearly on top of the barrel is more likely a rack type, inventory number when the pistol was captured after a battle. It's also possible the inventory number was added after the pistol was confiscated when the French took control of Algeria in 1830.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

Here is a close up of the pistol lock. Likely European made and exported like the barrel. In fact, the chiseling and engraving is well done and in a generic enough pattern, that could also have been done in Europe before the lock was exported. And in a manner done to suite local Eastern tastes. This was often done as these large horse type pistols remained popular for such a long period in Eastern markets.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

How do you know when your collection is too large ? When you keep forgetting some different guns you own. LOL

Here is another one I had forgotten. Don't believe I've posted here before. Here is another Albanian Tanchika musket. It's typical of most others, except it looks to have been built in carbine length. Possibly for use on horseback. I have seen these shorter lengths before. But they were all cut-back from an original longer musket length. Sometimes, crudely, sometimes professionally. If it was cut-back during the period, I can't tell. Even the muzzle end has a slight swell and looks correct. It's about .70 caliber. The lock is in good working order. The rust on the barrel is only light surface rust. IMHO this gun would be a good candidate to make into a shooter if one were inclined. The stock is solid with no cracks or breaks. It's not at the higher end of collector category, but much better than a wall hanger. Anyway, here are some pics.

Rick

 

[cyten]

Rick that is one of the nicer cut down models I have seen. Usually there is very clear evidence of it having been cut down but this one looks as though it could have been made this length. Also of note, the lock has the triangular spring cover/guard that is usually only found on the pistols.

 

[rickystl]

Rick that is one of the nicer cut down models I have seen. Usually there is very clear evidence of it having been cut down but this one looks as though it could have been made this length. Also of note, the lock has the triangular spring cover/guard that is usually only found on the pistols.

Hi Cyten

That spring guard is often referred to as the "fence". I believe the fence addition first showed up on Spanish locks.

Rick

 

[Barud]

Ottoman traveler Evliya Çelebi speaks of capstan-styled balls and some sort of bolo bullet with a wire nestled inside, which expands when fired out and can apparently cut off limbs. He's a treasure trove of information, but loves his hyperbole, and it's hard to tell when he's outright making up tall tales and when he's not.

Hello folks. I know it's somewhat of a necro-quote, but I figured you all would like to see this and couldn't think of any other thread to post it in. These are from the shipwreck of the Batavia. The museum claims that they're examples of a "spring shot" or "wired ball", lead musket balls tied together with brass wire to expand and cut apart the foe when fired out of a musket or swivel cannon. I've searched for the terms on Google and some claim it really is as Evliya Çelebi wrote. Either that, or they're sinkers for fishing lines. Still interesting, I'd argue.

 

[cyten]

Here is the only picture of a short Tanchica I've found to date, could be the same as Rick's!

A photo of an Albanian man with a Tanchica from 1908 by the adventurer Edith Durham who traveled Albania extensively by herself.

Honest example of a Shishane in Bulgaria

Bulgarian restoration

Ottoman Gendarmerie in 1900, Shishane serving alongside Peabody-Martinis!

Kurdish Gendarmerie in 1895

A very interesting page from a 17th century document on Chinese firearms describing a "Lu Mi Chong" or "嚕密銃" which is a Turkish Matchlock that was tested and ultimately adopted in a slightly modified form by the Chinese.

 

[TobJohn]

Here is the only picture of a short Tanchica I've found to date, could be the same as Rick's!

View attachment 254924

A photo of an Albanian man with a Tanchica from 1908 by the adventurer Edith Durham who traveled Albania extensively by herself.
View attachment 254925

Honest example of a Shishane in Bulgaria
View attachment 254930
View attachment 254931

Bulgarian restoration
View attachment 254932

Ottoman Gendarmerie in 1900, Shishane serving alongside Peabody-Martinis!
View attachment 254933

Kurdish Gendarmerie in 1895
View attachment 254934

Amazing photos!

 

[Sam squanch]

I guess crime sure didn’t pay back then!

 

[Rudyard]

Post #501:

Hi Cyten

For the most part, Eastern and Western bullet molds look similar. With the occasional strange one showing up.

That is a beautiful English sporting rifle. The barrel and decoration is a clue that this gun may have been commissioned for a customer of Ottoman/Turkish decent living in England. In later years, I've found this more common than I originally thought. Ottoman barrels were held in high regard in many areas of Europe for their quality and accuracy. Their barrels show up on sporting guns in many places.

Note the rear sight combination. That tall, rear piece at the back of the breech would typically be a graduated rear sight itself, in the traditional Ottoman/Turkish manner. But instead, that rear aperture is opened up to form a "hood" (I think that's what it's called) and a Western style, three-position rear sight added. Interesting. The three sights might be graduated for 25, 50, and 75 yards (?). Or the metric equivalent.

It's certainly a cool and interesting gun that appears in near perfect condition. Thanks for posting.

Rick

I cant see the sight leaves set for so short ranges more like 50 100 & two hundred . The' Hood ' I think is called a' Sherbakar' . The only Turkish rifle I own with very good rifleing has increments to an estimated three 100 yards perhaps for some sort of picket bullet perhaps. I only shot it at 100 yards with ball but was pleasantly surprised at its accuracy. All the old ones are catch as catch can in hunting in these forests after Deer 30 yards is a long shot . Ive shot Deer from the hip before today its often a sudden close range affair I regard sights as largley useless except for rifle ranges A view entertained by Lt Forsythe noted Victorian hunter in Central India he worked as what ide call a 'timber cruiser' His ' The Sporting rifle & its projectiles' and the 'Highlands of central India ' He survived all the maladies of pestilent India goes home to UK on furlow & dies of cholera ! . Pity, if a lucky break for the Tigers & such game . Ime curious how my old posts re appear I don't mind overly just unexpected flattering in a way .
Regards Rudyard

 

[Rudyard]

Do you happen to know how the fluted barrel is made? Is it just chiseled down the length?

The fluteing is technically impossible but they didn't know that so did it routinely. I onced ask an India gun maker how he did some thing he replied " We are makeing with the help of the files" likely rolling his eyes like they do
.Regards Rudyard

 

[GREENSWLDE]

The fluteing is technically impossible but they didn't know that so did it routinely. I onced ask an India gun maker how he did some thing he replied " We are makeing with the help of the files" likely rolling his eyes like they do
.Regards Rudyard

Hi, Rudyard,Tried to e,mail but
e Bounced. please E correct E code.O.D.

 

[Rudyard]

Hi, Rudyard,Tried to e,mail but
e Bounced. please E correct E code.O.D.

Dear Old Dg have PMed you Regards Rudyard

 

[Rudyard]

Rudyard, wonderful work! I'm looking for a nice (cheap) blank to carve a new stock for my Shishane, just so I wont have to worry about opening up the cracks ive fixed.
Ricky, I believe you are right about the cartridge boxes (palaskas) being used for the pistols. Though I have not examined any in person. And I have had a difficult time finding examples of original paper cartridges from the region.
Stecal, I too have a huge interest in these Ottoman styled guns but have until a few weeks back been able to find one for sale that was less than $3000! Original barrels and locks can still be had for pretty cheap in Bulgaria where many reenactors build their own from existing parts. I've been 3 times in the last 2 years but mostly looking for Krnka rifles.

Dear Cyten I still await your barrel length need of the W' nut though if its very long you can allways scarf ie join two sections as they did I have the California address some where still .
Regards Rudyard