Ottoman Guns

[RAEDWALD]

Here is a Gabrovo shishane that I had the honor of restoring.

Seems a little extravagant for a Gabrovnik who can make a Yorkshireman look like a wild spender.

To guide the puzzled, there is a joke that asks why people from Gabrovo have cats with no tails? So that they do not have to open the door for as long when they come inside during the winter.

I apologise to the, doubtless, good people of Gabrovo for perpetuating the slander.

 

[rickystl]

Here is one coming up for bid soon. The seller is identifying this gun as an India Torador. I don't believe that is correct. From the wrist area forward, the gun looks Ottoman/Turkish in style - but with a common, Balkan style miquelet lock. The muzzle of the barrel also looks Ottoman/Turk. But the rounded butt stock is very similar the shoulder guns from South India - with less taper. Another some what unusual piece that is also interesting.

Rick

 

[cyten]

Something odd that I stumbled upon in Wikipedia; Martini-action rifles made to handle like traditional Ottoman/Caucasian muzzleloaders through massive modification of the stock-receiver interface.

I can’t imagine that stock allows for a comfortable position to use your trigger finger without major stretching!

Here is one coming up for bid soon. The seller is identifying this gun as an India Torador. I don't believe that is correct. From the wrist area forward, the gun looks Ottoman/Turkish in style - but with a common, Balkan style miquelet lock. The muzzle of the barrel also looks Ottoman/Turk. But the rounded butt stock is very similar the shoulder guns from South India - with less taper. Another some what unusual piece that is also interesting.

Rick

View attachment 294710

I’ve seen a few of these throughout the years always in poor condition. My guess is that they are Shishanes that made their way to North Africa or Arabian coast where they were modified to the local taste and used hard

 

[cyten]

I just lost an auction for a Makedonka, so I thought I’d post a little bit of info on them, lol. Here are a couple pages from the Russian book “Турецкое Оружие” (Turkish Weapons) by E.G. Astvatsaturyan that I’ve passed through google translate.

The book is available to read for free online HERE, though it is in Russian, there are a lot of interesting photos. I have got translated the 4 chapters regarding Firearms

The book is a study of the arms in the Russian State Museum collection, so it is documented where and when the pieces were acquired and helps with identifying Shishane styles from different centuries.

 

[Barud]

I can’t imagine that stock allows for a comfortable position to use your trigger finger without major stretching!

In Turkish we have a saying, "He who's accustomed is worse than he who's frenzied". Old habits die hard and all that.

I just lost an auction for a Makedonka, so I thought I’d post a little bit of info on them, lol. Here are a couple pages from the Russian book “Турецкое Оружие” (Turkish Weapons) by E.G. Astvatsaturyan that I’ve passed through google translate.

The book is available to read for free online HERE, though it is in Russian, there are a lot of interesting photos. I have got translated the 4 chapters regarding Firearms

The book is a study of the arms in the Russian State Museum collection, so it is documented where and when the pieces were acquired and helps with identifying Shishane styles from different centuries.

Wonderful resource, thank you! That percussion-converted Makedonka is one to remember. I missed out on miquelet version a few years back and haven't seen one like it since.

 

[rickystl]

Cyten: Thanks for posting these photos and transcribed information. Much appreciated. I'll add this info. to my library.

Sorry you lost the auction. The hammer price tells me the successful bidder new exactly what he was bidding on. They very seldom come up for auction.

In the photos: I agree with Barud. That's the first Balkan Style miquelet lock, clearly converted to percussion that I can recall.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

"I’ve seen a few of these throughout the years always in poor condition. My guess is that they are Shishanes that made their way to North Africa or Arabian coast where they were modified to the local taste and used hard"

A good guess. Much agree. The mix of different cultures in the broad region is amazing.

Rick

 

[Cayman like]

Here is a Gabrovo shishane that I had the honor of restoring.

Beautiful!

 

[cyten]

Wanted to post this picture of original ramrod accessories I’ve not seen anywhere else

 

[cyten]

Very excited to have picked this lock and barrel up at auction!
Lock is in much better shape than the barrel, but I’ll be in the states in a few weeks and be able to examine/clean the barrel up to see if I can potentially mate the two into something.

 

[rickystl]

Wanted to post this picture of original ramrod accessories I’ve not seen anywhere else


View attachment 301660

Thanks for posting. The accessories do not look all that different than the European ones for the same time period. I've seen these Ottoman style shoulder guns with both wood and iron ramrods. About 50/50.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

Very excited to have picked this lock and barrel up at auction!
Lock is in much better shape than the barrel, but I’ll be in the states in a few weeks and be able to examine/clean the barrel up to see if I can potentially mate the two into something.
View attachment 305112
View attachment 305116

WOW!!! Nice Ottoman/Turkish lock. Congratulations !!! Good thing you gave us all a heads-up. I would have bid on it. LOL

The barrel, at first glance appears do-able. The outside looks like just light surface rust. That should easily clean up with regular gun oil and 0000 steel wool. The percussion drum can be removed and the existing vent hole welded closed. Is the rear sight part of the barrel ? Or the breech plug ? I can't tell from the photo. I've seen it done both ways.

Rick

 

[cyten]

WOW!!! Nice Ottoman/Turkish lock. Congratulations !!! Good thing you gave us all a heads-up. I would have bid on it. LOL

The barrel, at first glance appears do-able. The outside looks like just light surface rust. That should easily clean up with regular gun oil and 0000 steel wool. The percussion drum can be removed and the existing vent hole welded closed. Is the rear sight part of the barrel ? Or the breech plug ? I can't tell from the photo. I've seen it done both ways.

Rick

Thank you for your restraint, I’m very pleased with this find. From the pictures of the auction the sight appears to be integral to the barrel rather than the breech plug, but I could be mistaken, I’ve never had one apart.it looks crusty but I’ve seen worlds difference after a round of electrolysis, so I’m hopeful.

The lock measures out to 3 inches

I believe both of these to be 18th century pieces, as round barrels are something that were no longer produced for shishane in the 19th century (from my own experience and according to Astvatsaturyan), though it is fairly short, which seems to be uncommon for that period. And the lock is in the style of dated 18th century examples, I will post more info once I’m back home and have access to my literature.
Here is an example of a Sultans palace guard rifle from the 18th century and was gifted to Lord Nelson in 1799

And a place guard rifle that came into the collection of the Russian State Historical Museum in the “first third of the 18th century”

 

[rickystl]

Hi Cyten

BARREL: That barrel does indeed look crusty. But, as you mentioned, electrolysis can do wonders. Another option I've used in the past is glass bead blasting (not sand blasting). GBB can be set to different power levels, allowing the rust to be removed without destroying the original patina. So the rust can be removed in layers to what ever the desired outcome. The "tang" of the breech plug looks very close to the peep hole in the rear sight. If so, that seems like the rear sight is part of the plug. But it may be just the angle of the photo I'm looking at. But you'll likely be able to know once you can personally inspect it.

LOCK: That appears to be a nice lock. 3" lock plate length tells me this was made for a pistol. But the overall dimensions could easily be used for a shoulder gun it seems. Again, you will know when you can inspect it.

Rick

 

[cyten]

LOCK: That appears to be a nice lock. 3" lock plate length tells me this was made for a pistol. But the overall dimensions could easily be used for a shoulder gun it seems. Again, you will know when you can inspect it.

Rick

The lock in my Shishane measures to 3 1/4 so I think it will be ok for a shoulder gun as well.
A project that will take some time!

As a point of interest, here is a Shishane that belonged to Sultan Ahmed III. He ruled from 1703-1730, so this can be dated to somewhere in that first quarter and of the 18th century (courtesy of the Hisart Museum in Istanbul)

I have also recently been reading about the shooting competitions held in the Ottoman Empire. Popular in the days, at first for archery, of course with the introduction to firearms they were added as well. Records were held by erecting pillars called nişantaşı at the distance. There are around 40 of the left in Turkey.

This one was to commemorate Mahmud II shooting an ostrich egg with a rifle in 1810 at 736 meters!

Apparently the minimum distances to shoot a chicken egg was 264 meters, ostrich egg 702 meters, jar of water 827 meters. No small feat to this day!
Hopefully @Barud can correct me on anything.

 

[rickystl]

Yes, that lock should work. Maybe tackle the barrel first, as time and budget permit. What's good is that your lock, stock, and barrel are all here in the States. So, any required work beyond your expertise can be done locally, with shipping within the USA. Even your stock blank can have the barrel channel and ramrod hole/groove - only - pre-cut for a builder, saving much time and cost. Anyway, all kinds of help if and when you want it.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

Here is another interesting flintlock fowler showing both English and Ottoman influence. Again, possibly ordered by someone with an Ottoman background and living in England at the time.

Rick

https://www.invaluable.com/auction-...utm_campaign=keywordalerts&utm_content=278043

 

[Barud]

Wondrous to see this thread still going, with beautiful content to boot.

I have also recently been reading about the shooting competitions held in the Ottoman Empire. Popular in the days, at first for archery, of course with the introduction to firearms they were added as well. Records were held by erecting pillars called nişantaşı at the distance. There are around 40 of the left in Turkey.

This one was to commemorate Mahmud II shooting an ostrich egg with a rifle in 1810 at 736 meters!
View attachment 307262

Apparently the minimum distances to shoot a chicken egg was 264 meters, ostrich egg 702 meters, jar of water 827 meters. No small feat to this day!
Hopefully @Barud can correct me on anything.

There are some still standing indeed in Istanbul; a whole neighborhood is named Nişantaşı because of these pillars. And what I know of the topic indeed corroborates your information. I never could believe Mahmud II making shots like that with the firearms of his era, but I suppose that's just me being a Thomas. Regarding Mahmud II and firearms, here's another bit of trivia that I know of: There's a standard issue musket in the French (or Belgian) style in the Military Museum, completely coated in silver, apparently because it was used to shoot at him when he tried to enter one of his newly-built barracks unannounced and without providing the proper password. I wonder if he would've been as pleased with his new army corps' discipline had the shooter not missed.

 

[cyten]

Finally back in the USA for a visit. In the process of getting things out of storage, took a quick photo.

The Kariophili has turned out pretty nice with some cleaning of the brass, the barrel still needs some work and the lock is missing it’s mainspring. The palaska and grease box are recent acquisitions and pretty cool that the grease box still has its original leather, though torn

 

[rickystl]

Hi Cyten

Welcome back. How long do you plan on staying ?

Both guns look to be in good shape. Do you eventually plan on making both guns as shooters ? Or just kept as collectors items ?

Kariophili: The lock appears to be one of the common export locks used for many of these guns. Being a flintlock, it would be fairly easy to have a new mainspring made and tuned to the lock. In fact, there is probably a current made mainspring that could easily be adapted for use.

Palaska: Looks good. It's always nice to find ones without dents or bent lids. LOL

Greese Box: That's a nice one. Yes, actually difficult to find these complete like this one. The leather can be stitched together if desired.
Speaking of which: Did we ever ask Barud or Boli their opinions of what these little brass containers were actually used for ? I can't remember. I do remember a few years ago on the "Other" Forum that there was a long discussion on what they were used to carry. There were differing opinions. We do know that the small, thinner, square, ones were used to carry the miniature Korans. But these somewhat egg-shaped ones have always been referred to as "grease containers" by collectors. But I don't recall reading any genuine historical information as to what they were actually used for. None of the other suggested possibilities made any sense. It could have indeed been used to carry grease, but somehow I still don't think that was it's intended purpose. Still don't know ? What have you heard/read ?

Rick