Ottoman Guns

[cyten]

Thanks Rick! Only back in town for a month to take care of some things.
I have shot the Shishane once before and i’d like to get the Kariophili shooting as well. It has some damage to crown that needs addressing before that can happen, as well as a mainspring. I think all that may have to be done in another visit, but I’d love to find the time now.
Regarding the grease box, Bobi, some others in Bulgaria and in the Caucasus have told me these were for grease or fat. The Russian/Armenian author Astvatsaturyan writes that these were for storing spare flints or fat/grease or rags soaked in oil/grease for cleaning. The rag could make sense seeing as I’ve never heard of anyone finding a container with any remnants of grease left. A piece of cloth is easily lost or tossed out.
I’ve taken some photos of markings on the barrel, if anyone has any ideas, please share.

 

[Rudyard]

So you bought something from Hall's ! Was it the old man --- a "character" would be generous -- or from John, his gunsmith son?

The old man in his deer stalker brieks and Hat & Westit John was more normal but in his gunshop Frank looked the part catch him in a good mood he was great. We called him "The Bishop of Beetwell Street 'only he didn't where a top hat in bed Might have wore his Deerstalker though.
Regards Rudyard

 

[Rudyard]

The Ottomans primarily used matchlocks until the mid to late 1600s at which time they started transitioning to what is now called the Spanish style miquelet lock, with matchlocks often converted into miquelets. What distinguishes a miquelet from a true flintlock is that the sear projects horizontally thru the lockplate, and also that the lock is typically on the outside of the gun.

Compared to the true flintlock, the miquelet is easier to manufacture, and more reliable with a dull flint. However in the half-**** position the spring is still under some tension and can wear out over time. Additionally, the miquelet's more aggressive angle of flint striking the frizzen creates a more violent shake disrupting aim.

Judging by these pictures, true flintlocks made their appearance in Ottoman lands at some point by the 1800s, I don't know if that was a preference or just a phenomenon of importing guns from the West.

More photos have been collected here: Ottoman matchlock examples. - Ethnographic Arms & Armour

As far as I can tell, the Ottoman matchlocks had a trigger mechanism like this, with a spring acting downward on the trigger:

They can be made of one member I copied one recently from an old Omani gun you do need a light spring mind.
Rudyard

 

[rickystl]

Cyten: Thanks for your response. Again, when the time comes, there are plenty of resources here in the States for addressing the Kariophili back to shooting condition.
Thanks again for the information on the grease containers. That's what we will call them. Holding grease is as a good of guess as any.

Rick

 

[Rudyard]

The lock in my Shishane measures to 3 1/4 so I think it will be ok for a shoulder gun as well.
A project that will take some time!

As a point of interest, here is a Shishane that belonged to Sultan Ahmed III. He ruled from 1703-1730, so this can be dated to somewhere in that first quarter and of the 18th century (courtesy of the Hisart Museum in Istanbul)
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I have also recently been reading about the shooting competitions held in the Ottoman Empire. Popular in the days, at first for archery, of course with the introduction to firearms they were added as well. Records were held by erecting pillars called nişantaşı at the distance. There are around 40 of the left in Turkey.

This one was to commemorate Mahmud II shooting an ostrich egg with a rifle in 1810 at 736 meters!
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Apparently the minimum distances to shoot a chicken egg was 264 meters, ostrich egg 702 meters, jar of water 827 meters. No small feat to this day!
Hopefully @Barud can correct me on anything.

I have a rifle that has the facility of elivateing to some 1&1 half inch from the rear sight base it being dove tail part way up the barrel . The Sher bakar? rear sight evidently removed Ile append a pic later it also has a rude steel butt plate with a square hole as if some clamp like jig saw experimental use .Note small scale lock presumably to reduce Jar ?. Bore great shot it once other wise a classic Turkish Rifle. I thought might be made for these long range events .Perhaps using a picket bullet rather than a ball but this is my speculation .Still an interesting angle to pursue .
Regards Rudyard

 

[Rudyard]

I have a rifle that has the facility of elivateing to some 1&1 half inch from the rear sight base it being dove tail part way up the barrel . The Sher bakar? rear sight evidently removed Ile append a pic later it also has a rude steel butt plate with a square hole as if some clamp like jig saw experimental use .Note small scale lock presumably to reduce Jar ?. Bore great shot it once other wise a classic Turkish Rifle. I thought might be made for these long range events .Perhaps using a picket bullet rather than a ball but this is my speculation .Still an interesting angle to pursue .
Regards Rudyard
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[Rudyard]

I have a rifle that has the facility of elivateing to some 1&1 half inch from the rear sight base it being dove tail part way up the barrel . The Sher bakar? rear sight evidently removed Ile append a pic later it also has a rude steel butt plate with a square hole as if some clamp like jig saw experimental use .Note small scale lock presumably to reduce Jar ?. Bore great shot it once other wise a classic Turkish Rifle. I thought might be made for these long range events .Perhaps using a picket bullet rather than a ball but this is my speculation .Still an interesting angle to pursue .
Regards Rudyard
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I was getting the earlier' Ottoman Guns' posts but the 'Pre flintlock' seems bunged up by' Hand Gonnes' ect , Of course they ARE pre flintlock .But Ide vainly hoped for feed back on this original Turkish Rifle .Perhaps it might better suit 'Original Guns '?.
Rudyard the student

 

[rickystl]

Hi Rudyard

Your gun posted above would equally be appropriate in BOTH categories of this Forum, in my opinion. But glad you posted it here.

That is a very nice Ottoman/Turkish shishane rifle. That Damascus barrel appears to be a beauty. And looks to be in good condition. The rear sight is interesting. It looks like maybe an Ottoman/Turk variation of a European style and mounting of a rear sight. You don't often see this, but I have seen a couple of others with a similar rear sight. I'm guessing there is a vertical slide that moves up or down to produce maybe 2 or 3 different holes (?) Possibly done latter in the period with the traditional fixed sight at the very rear of the breach removed (?)

It's always seemed to me that the Ottoman/Turks viewed their shoulder guns as long range weapons. Whether fixed or adjustable, they all have the round holes that Europeans considered peep sights for long range shooting. Your gun would be a nice Shishane to own and shoot. If you get a chance, can you show a couple more pics of that rear sight ? Thanks for posting.

Rick

 

[Rudyard]

Hi Rudyard

Your gun posted above would equally be appropriate in BOTH categories of this Forum, in my opinion. But glad you posted it here.

That is a very nice Ottoman/Turkish shishane rifle. That Damascus barrel appears to be a beauty. And looks to be in good condition. The rear sight is interesting. It looks like maybe an Ottoman/Turk variation of a European style and mounting of a rear sight. You don't often see this, but I have seen a couple of others with a similar rear sight. I'm guessing there is a vertical slide that moves up or down to produce maybe 2 or 3 different holes (?) Possibly done latter in the period with the traditional fixed sight at the very rear of the breach removed (?)

It's always seemed to me that the Ottoman/Turks viewed their shoulder guns as long range weapons. Whether fixed or adjustable, they all have the round holes that Europeans considered peep sights for long range shooting. Your gun would be a nice Shishane to own and shoot. If you get a chance, can you show a couple more pics of that rear sight ? Thanks for posting.

Rick

Dear Rick . I wanted to take better pics of the sight but my daughters flat glass thing ran out of power ,Ditto the 3/8" square hole 1& a half inch deep as if in a testing jig in the steel butt plate , just a thin affair .Point being that elevation would presumably be for distances well beyound the normal expectation of a round ball .Perhaps a picket bullet .Somebody loved that rifle .I got it in Ohio $700 US but I thought it worth that to me ,Like that old dual ignition Persian ? rifle I had as a teenager but let it go .probably because it was so heavy .The bore is quite perfect must check the and bore size about 50 cal I seem to recall . The Damascus Brl is bold except where the sight was added they evidently thought about its function rather than looks .

On that theme Who knows a good way to refresh the worn once bold and tactile Damascus ? mild sulphuric ? or what ever was used. of the few old breechloader barrels I have gathered many had either twist or nice Damascus to varying degrees of bold ness . I once stocked up a separated pair of L C Smith barrels they where in the white each tube then made up as the double ten bore only to find one tube was steel the other Damascus .by mistake ? what to do ?? well sell it off cheap I supposes its now or was a double 10 bore flintlock of healthy dimension but that was how the US market seemed to prefer a gun lots of drop & heavy as if stalking up to bladder a flock ,Whereas the English sportsman wanted as light as practical .since you walked all day and wanted a quick mounting of his gun .plus free of fault should it fail since they where all Proofed as fit so the maker didn't fear liabilities so didn't make barrels any stouter than needed Last saw the double 10 flint gun was in Ohio Herman Marker had it made by me he used to run the skeet range at F ship . Regards Rudyard

 

[bobi13]

Hello, I recently bought this haircut from a collector in Poland. This is a Gabrovo cut with a European barrel. All I know about the barrel is that the maker is JOHANN NEUREITER and probably Austrian. If anyone knows more about this manufacturer, please share with me. When I restore it I will show it here, but it will take a long time, maybe a year.
Regards Bobi

 

[cyten]

I have a rifle that has the facility of elivateing to some 1&1 half inch from the rear sight base it being dove tail part way up the barrel . The Sher bakar? rear sight evidently removed Ile append a pic later it also has a rude steel butt plate with a square hole as if some clamp like jig saw experimental use .Note small scale lock presumably to reduce Jar ?. Bore great shot it once other wise a classic Turkish Rifle. I thought might be made for these long range events .Perhaps using a picket bullet rather than a ball but this is my speculation .Still an interesting angle to pursue .
Regards Rudyard

Very cool piece! It seems to me the barrels without the tombstone shaped peep sights seem to appear outside of Turkey, in my experience. Just speculation, but it appears the traditional barrel mounted sights were favored by Ottomans outside of Turkey proper, no concrete evidence, just things I've noticed in museums and travels. As I posted earlier, long range shooting competitions were very much a thing, shooting ostrich eggs over 700 meters distances!

Hello, I recently bought this haircut from a collector in Poland. This is a Gabrovo cut with a European barrel. All I know about the barrel is that the maker is JOHANN NEUREITER and probably Austrian. If anyone knows more about this manufacturer, please share with me. When I restore it I will show it here, but it will take a long time, maybe a year.
Regards Bobi

Thanks for sharing your new acquisition! For those wondering, "Shishane" often comes out as "Haircut" when Google Translating Bulgarian-English and vice versa for some reason.
As for the barrel, Johann Neureiter appears to have been a gunsmith from Salzburg, Austria active from at least the early 1700's
There is a wheellock marked with his name from 1706 at the SALZBURG MUSEUM and AMBROSE ANTIQUES had a flintlock jager rifle that had a barrel by him as well.

 

[Rudyard]

I wonder if Bobi knows what acids cause the deep 'figure' in bold Damascus barrels .wonder why the rifle has trigger guard Migulet's don't need one The' Patilla.'s bight's so deep it cant go off on half bent smash the trigger to a ruin it still cant go off. Don't try it just study the lock design. I think my Village comes out as' Tapeworm.'on these e gajets . Nice Rifle in the right hands to restore it . Regards Rudyard

 

[rickystl]

Hello, I recently bought this haircut from a collector in Poland. This is a Gabrovo cut with a European barrel. All I know about the barrel is that the maker is JOHANN NEUREITER and probably Austrian. If anyone knows more about this manufacturer, please share with me. When I restore it I will show it here, but it will take a long time, maybe a year.
Regards Bobi

Hi Bobi !! Hope You and Yours have all been well. Much agree, very cool looking and interesting Shishane. This one should make for a super nice restoration. It's certainly in the right hands now. Glad Cyten could locate the barrel maker. Interesting. Might place this gun in the mid-18th Century, assuming the barrel was not older and repurposed. The stock and lock both look typical Ottoman/Turkish. The barrel has a typical looking European rear sight. And the trigger guard. Unusual, but not unheard of with a Shishane. Another European a feature. But, not in combination with a ball trigger. Hmmmm. Makes me think the guard was possibly a latter, period addition. Not originally with the gun. I notice the guard is held with just one nail to the front only. Can't imagine this would hold firm. I'm going to speculate that the trigger guard was added much later, maybe during the 20th Century, by some collector who saw the large hole behind the trigger and thinking the gun was missing a trigger guard. I've seen this before on 2-3 similar guns that were intentionally made without guards. In fact, I own a Moroccan pistol that was the same, and held by just one nail. Apparently, the owner didn't want to believe it could have been made without a guard. Again, just speculation.

Cyten said: "It seems to me the barrels without the tombstone shaped peep sights seem to appear outside of Turkey, in my experience. Just speculation, but it appears the traditional barrel mounted sights were favored by Ottomans outside of Turkey proper, no concrete evidence, just things I've noticed in museums and travels. As I posted earlier, long range shooting competitions were very much a thing, shooting ostrich eggs over 700 meters distances!"

That's what I've noticed also. You don't see these tall, coffin shaped rear sights on other Eastern guns. But with the popularity of long range shooting in Turkey proper it makes sense.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

A beautiful and interesting Greek pistol. Agree with the seller's origin.

https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/incredibly-rare-and-fine-greek-pistol-with-concea-76d4b418a1

Rick

 

[cyten]

Very brief visit to Bulgaria on a layover. A couple of lovely new builds by another Bulgarian builder

 

[rickystl]

WOW !!!! Those are wonderful looking !!! The owners will have a great time shooting. Notice the rear butt stock piece is attached with one large, forged nail. Just as the originals were.

Rick

 

[cyten]

Here are some paintings from Egypt that show the use of the Albanian Tanchica. Albanians were used extensively as Police, Bashi-Bazouk (Mercenaries), and Military Personnel in Egypt by the Ottomans. As a matter of fact, the famous leader of Egypt, Muhammed Ali, was Albanian and every ruler of Egypt from 1805-1953 was as well. It is no wonder why their influence, at least in arms, was seen throughout the ages.

And a strange one I've never seen before, Tanchica Blunderbuss

 

[rickystl]

Cyten: Thanks so much for these recent photos. That blunderbuss is a first for me also. Interesting. Also, the last photo showing a top view of how the butt stocks were made. All I've seen are built similar. From the grip area, the stock tapers back dramatically to a thin and small butt cap. From a shooter's perspective, I've never really understood this approach. This design coupled with a LOP of only 11"-12" and a long, heavy barrel does not make for a natural feel when pointing the gun. It's a bit confusing when you go to shoulder the gun. You find yourself wanting to grip the forearm further forward than normal.
None the less, these Tanchica muskets were very popular in many areas. At least with the Albanians. Just look at how may there are available today throughout the USA and Europe. They show up at auctions often.

Again, thanks for the photos.

Rick

 

[cyten]

It's a bit confusing when you go to shoulder the gun. You find yourself wanting to grip the forearm further forward than normal.
None the less, these Tanchica muskets were very popular in many areas. At least with the Albanians. Just look at how may there are available today throughout the USA and Europe. They show up at auctions often.

Again, thanks for the photos.

Rick

The only explanation I can think of is that it was all most of them knew and what they learned on. Whenever I have taken someone shooting for the first time, their natural inclination (despite my having shown them) is to shoulder the gun in the most unnatural ways. Stock under the armpit, resting on top of the shoulder, etc. Now imagine it's the 18th century, one of them goes back to their village and decides to make guns!


Of note, I found this table in "Guns for the Sultan: Military Power and the Weapons Industry in the Ottoman Empire" by Gábor Ágoston. It shows that there were Miquelet lock Shishane and Trench guns (Metris Tufengi) as early as the 16th century.

These are from what are in the Istanbul Military museum, so they could possibly be Matchlocks that were upgraded to Miquelet locks later, like this middle example.

And as for these "Metris" or "Trench" guns, from what I have seen, they are basically what we know as wall guns. I managed to find an old photo from my visit to the Vienna Arsenal in 2010. A very odd Metris rifle, whose form I haven't seen anywhere else in any museums with Turkish weapons. This was captured at the Siege of Vienna in 1683.

Here are more typical Ottoman Metris guns.

 

[TobJohn]

The only explanation I can think of is that it was all most of them knew and what they learned on. Whenever I have taken someone shooting for the first time, their natural inclination (despite my having shown them) is to shoulder the gun in the most unnatural ways. Stock under the armpit, resting on top of the shoulder, etc. Now imagine it's the 18th century, one of them goes back to their village and decides to make guns!


Of note, I found this table in "Guns for the Sultan: Military Power and the Weapons Industry in the Ottoman Empire" by Gábor Ágoston. It shows that there were Miquelet lock Shishane and Trench guns (Metris Tufengi) as early as the 16th century.
View attachment 327328
These are from what are in the Istanbul Military museum, so they could possibly be Matchlocks that were upgraded to Miquelet locks later, like this middle example.
View attachment 327334

And as for these "Metris" or "Trench" guns, from what I have seen, they are basically what we know as wall guns. I managed to find an old photo from my visit to the Vienna Arsenal in 2010. A very odd Metris rifle, whose form I haven't seen anywhere else in any museums with Turkish weapons. This was captured at the Siege of Vienna in 1683.
View attachment 327329

Here are more typical Ottoman Metris guns.

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Amazing photos! I have that book too and its one of the only sources I've seen on actual numbers for Ottoman military production.

That Metris from Vienna has a very similar barrel and cutback section of stock to the French wheellock I saw with an ottoman barrel. Very curious.