Ottoman Guns

[Rudyard]

Prompted by the two horns shewn int he last post of Barud I got pics of the Two Similar I own The Brass one is think just made for sale in the North Africa regions . The other actual Horn is one bought in Casablanca in 1965 it being I thought a true well used horn inc repair patch .The Shop called it 'Berber' but you cant go on that .What is interesting is one side decor is different to the other side curious at the very least . I haggled till they hinted at my Nationality & seemed about to shoo me away from the shop . But I still gave the equivalent of a pound & since I lived in Morocco for two months on ten pounds it represented a big out lay .Ide gone to Marrakesh to look for a pistol to use They had a flint one & a percussion one but insisted the percussion was older. ! I didn't get either but it was worth a look see . And I've still got it 59 years later though I didn't use it with the Kabyle hunting .It sits with a Cape Dutch powder Horn from the other end of Africa & I have a long ungainly horn from West Equatorial Africa but whether it was for Powder or Snuff Ime guessing might be an Ashanti magazine horn. The cow possibly from Fulani cattle The curious smaller leather/skin flask I bought in the US from a fellow at a rendezvous called' Peddler' he had a few of them how practical they would be is anyone's guess but they appear old & seem to pop up now & then with speculation its formed of a particular part of a Camels anatomy but though I've never studied that particular part didn't seem more than a good selling point. I mostly collected English lanthorn Flasks . but these ethnological ones are interesting .
Rudyard
PS .Masle add the Cape Dutch Horn a long with a stag flask I made years ago mostly carved at Alice Springs as I had the time & used it with my Wheellock often since .Its white because I found a cast horn in the Whakatāne river one morning I've another with the nice bark still on it
R

 

[rickystl]

Hi Rudyard

Nice collection of horns/flask. RE: The first photo. The style of the large horn is indeed considered by many collectors to have originaled somewhere in West Africa. But a reasonable approximation of "where" in West Africa has never been determined. We think they have been made from period times all the way up to the 20th Century tourist period. They all look similar with reddish colored leather covering the complete horn, or most of it. And yes, they are large enough to be considered "magazine" size for carrying powder. LOL Over the many years, I've looked for one of these horns in a "medium" size. Never found one. They are all very large.
RE: The leather flask next to the big horn. Many collectors believe the style of this all-leather flask originated in Afghanistan. Could be. A lot of these are found there both old and newer. But some believe the style is Arab. Perhaps. But I go along with the Afghan origin. To me, they look like Afghan work. And, they often show up on original Afghan riflemen's belts.

RE: Photos 3 & 4 from the top. Moroccan powder horns/flasks: The one on the bottom made of horn with brass covered spout and end cap. The most interesting thing I see on your horn is that the brass portions are lightly engraved on BOTH sides. Only about 5% of these I've seen are worked on both sides. All the others are done only on the left side of the brass horn pieces. I've always found this curious. Similar idea to the all metal flask above that horn. Note the decoration on just one side - the LEFT.

Rick

 

[Rudyard]

Hi Rudyard

Nice collection of horns/flask. RE: The first photo. The style of the large horn is indeed considered by many collectors to have originaled somewhere in West Africa. But a reasonable approximation of "where" in West Africa has never been determined. We think they have been made from period times all the way up to the 20th Century tourist period. They all look similar with reddish colored leather covering the complete horn, or most of it. And yes, they are large enough to be considered "magazine" size for carrying powder. LOL Over the many years, I've looked for one of these horns in a "medium" size. Never found one. They are all very large.
RE: The leather flask next to the big horn. Many collectors believe the style of this all-leather flask originated in Afghanistan. Could be. A lot of these are found there both old and newer. But some believe the style is Arab. Perhaps. But I go along with the Afghan origin. To me, they look like Afghan work. And, they often show up on original Afghan riflemen's belts.

RE: Photos 3 & 4 from the top. Moroccan powder horns/flasks: The one on the bottom made of horn with brass covered spout and end cap. The most interesting thing I see on your horn is that the brass portions are lightly engraved on BOTH sides. Only about 5% of these I've seen are worked on both sides. All the others are done only on the left side of the brass horn pieces. I've always found this curious. Similar idea to the all metal flask above that horn. Note the decoration on just one side - the LEFT.

Rick

Dear Rick the bighorn is very Equatorial Africa in style Having Wanderer'd through the West Coast ,Mali then Sierra Leone to the Cameroon's in 1965 I saw similar work if not on any horns & never seen another horn, I think my one came from a Sheffield junk shop . Yes its big but I slung it round my neck as in use and it didnt seem SO ungainly , The bands are just rawhide the wood plug starts at the back end so if a quantity of course powder is filling it the actual volume isn't much more than the Cape Dutch horn they use 75 cal muskets . The Brass Moroc horn has a plain back part the Horn one is capped with iron each side engraved but different designs .the old patch gives it charm means it was well used ?. Re the Small flask it seems so frail nor could it be too practical but it is what it is the others' Peddler' had being much the same . The stag flask is just my whimsey but I used it years before I recently finished the Engraved bits & tidied up St George's head . The whole a bit ill proportioned but Tolerable for a pen knife blade and smashed bits of hard hacksaw to get the undercuts .I had no wireless or TV up in Alice Springs so Ide the time to work on it.
A big' Willy Willy' or Tornado had blown off the School roof (Again) and I worked for Public Works Dept restoring the missing roof . So was lodged at the Commonwealth Hostel ( Ide hitched up to Alice and hadn't a cracker bar the coins ide kept as souvenir's but got the job first day so I camped by the Todd river but our base was near by Ide leave my swag at a Garage . Shower after work & return to the dry river listening to the wild parties just close by where Aboriginals had nightly parties. More worried that the Mossis might get into my net . Xmas 1968 .'
Regards Rudyard
(Later day'Dingiswayo') ( A Zulu' Wanderer' )Well the' ding 'part fits .

 

[cyten]

Those are interesting horns, I actually haven’t seen many genuine Ottoman horns in museums or literature. Here is a Bulgarian one that is dated to 1757 that was on display in the Ethnographic museum in Plovdiv.

Here is an original military Ottoman powder horn

Here is one I saw on display in Georgia last year

Here is a new made lock that was done by a well known engraver in Bulgaria.

He also builds new guns from time to time

And a group shot from a local collector

 

[PathfinderNC]

This is fast becoming my favorite thread ️
Is this a trade gun sideplate on an Ottoman musket ?

 

[rickystl]

Hi Cyten

Once again, thanks so much for the photos. Mouth watering. LOL That gun/lock are beauties. Wish I would have known about these Bulgarian craftsmen 10 years ago.

Neat photo of those 3 Ottoman horns. And you're right, you don't often see horns that can be I.D.'d as Ottoman. Note the two large horns utilize the larger end of the horn to install the pour spouts. A bit of a carry-over from the 16th Century. Built similar to the horns found in Northern and Central India.

At least in later years, the Ottomans seem to favor the leather bandoliers with the individual wood powder containers. I have an original. I'll post it here.

Rick

 

[Rudyard]

Those are interesting horns, I actually haven’t seen many genuine Ottoman horns in museums or literature. Here is a Bulgarian one that is dated to 1757 that was on display in the Ethnographic museum in Plovdiv. View attachment 339887View attachment 339888

Here is an original military Ottoman powder horn
View attachment 339889
View attachment 339890

Here is a new made lock that was done by a well known engraver in Bulgaria.
View attachment 339891

He also builds new guns from time to time
View attachment 339892View attachment 339893View attachment 339894

And a group shot from a local collector
View attachment 339895

Absolutely brilliant work & the Stag flask looks well I have Bella Rosas ? Book looks like lead caps ? Oh while I think about it I need 4 by 6mms & 11 at 3&a half mms the smaller being 3 dots the larger haveing six dots or whatever the are segments fits . But If there not too dear to exceed the wood blank postage as many of the 6mm or larger as seems fair .. They would help complete the Shishoni I started ny 50 years ago (Cant rush these things Eh?)I could use a M Spring for an Albanian / Greek lock Ile pm with size they seem very fixed proportions enclosed hopefully my Miquelet and its O' All spring length is 3''or 76mms that black band is ebony & think between Pearl & Abalone shell & a few supportive Roskies ? would look well other pics might show Scots Snaphance rifle a 50 cal my Dirk & a prop Lemmon Butt & a horn flask that shows the spanner like extension to change flints Oh a rude Patron I used with the rude Snap M lock (I had to warn them about sticking their Toungs at the camera ) Hmm .
Regards Rudyard

 

[Rudyard]

This is fast becoming my favorite thread ️
Is this a trade gun sideplate on an Ottoman musket ?

Well no its a rather fanciful Serpant side plate on a Baltic Bird rifle of 290 cal. The serpent stuff seemed to be a popular theme. this one is basicaly a tarted up N West gun Serpant, only gave it a ruby eye . Pure whimsy .
Regards Rudyard

 

[rickystl]

As mentioned in my Post #746 above, along with the various powder horns and flasks, it was also popular with many to carry powder in individual containers in a wood/leather block around the waist or bandolier style over the shoulder. With a smaller priming flask and lead balls carried separately.
Here is one original in my collection. I believe this is Ottoman/Turkish work. It is a wood block covered with leather. Slightly smaller diameter wood containers fit in the holes of the block, with leather plugs as protective caps. Simple brass nail decoration on the outside. The tongue of the strap is torn of and missing long ago leaving just the buckle. You can see where the inner woodblock has started to deteriorate from age and likely heavy usage. I would imagine these bandoliers were often desired for cavalry use.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

Here is another original flask. Said to be Ottoman/Turkish. But I'm not really sure. The engraved "tulip shaped flower" on the back of the flask reminds me of something. But the relevance escapes me at the moment. All brass with silver decoration.

Rick

 

[AvtoGaz]

Wanted to post specifically about these guns, as I noticed they were misidentified on this forum (And in the collecting world in general).

These are Armenian guns from Zeytun, usually called "Zeytun Acari". Zeytun is a small region located in the Marash province of modern-day Turkey. Long story short it was ruled by 4 independent Armenian princes, who fought many times in the 19th century to preserve their autonomy. Much like in parts of the Balkans like Albania and Montenegro, everyone in Zeytun, from the local Princes to barbers and porters, was armed. This explains the relatively large number of these, especially in Turkey I hear they are much more common. The guns were produced locally from local metal deposits. Because of their reputation as fierce warriors, the Zeytunians were often hired to work as caravan drivers, guards, and in general traded through their own caravans, which explains why some of these ended up in neighboring regions. These are misidentified in Western Arms literature (Tirri calls it Rumelian, for example), but in the Turkish collecting community, to the descendants of Zeytunians, and in relevant Western literature from the 19th century it is clearly identified.

Also, although I have only one semi-decent picture and its not very clear, I suspect there may be such a thing as "Zeytun Acari Pistols", with the same wood carvings applied to their stocks. This is because every man carried two pistols in his belt, as best as I can tell from the literature on it, at all times. The picture is attached, let me know what you think.

Pictured: Some pictures from books, Armenian princes of Zeytun, a big collection of Zeytun arms, my example, and a pistol from Zeytun (I think I can just about make out a similar style of wood carving, let me know what you think)

 

[rickystl]

Hi Avto

Thanks so much for your Post. Most interesting. Here is a gun from my collection: Would this be they style of musket you are referring to ?
If so, I've always thought this gun to be Rumelian. So, it may actually come from Zeytun ? If so, that is good information.
In your photos, I immediately noticed the unique shape of the butt stock. And you mention carvings.

Rick

 

[Rudyard]

Wanted to post specifically about these guns, as I noticed they were misidentified on this forum (And in the collecting world in general).

These are Armenian guns from Zeytun, usually called "Zeytun Acari". Zeytun is a small region located in the Marash province of modern-day Turkey. Long story short it was ruled by 4 independent Armenian princes, who fought many times in the 19th century to preserve their autonomy. Much like in parts of the Balkans like Albania and Montenegro, everyone in Zeytun, from the local Princes to barbers and porters, was armed. This explains the relatively large number of these, especially in Turkey I hear they are much more common. The guns were produced locally from local metal deposits. Because of their reputation as fierce warriors, the Zeytunians were often hired to work as caravan drivers, guards, and in general traded through their own caravans, which explains why some of these ended up in neighboring regions. These are misidentified in Western Arms literature (Tirri calls it Rumelian, for example), but in the Turkish collecting community, to the descendants of Zeytunians, and in relevant Western literature from the 19th century it is clearly identified.

Also, although I have only one semi-decent picture and its not very clear, I suspect there may be such a thing as "Zeytun Acari Pistols", with the same wood carvings applied to their stocks. This is because every man carried two pistols in his belt, as best as I can tell from the literature on it, at all times. The picture is attached, let me know what you think.

Pictured: Some pictures from books, Armenian princes of Zeytun, a big collection of Zeytun arms, my example, and a pistol from Zeytun (I think I can just about make out a similar style of wood carving, let me know what you think)

Dear AvtoGas . Splendid post it all adds to our study of such arms ' Tesh i cush i dirum' = Thankyou ? & Byrack = Flag is all the Turkish I can remember when travelled through in 1966 if in' Cyten' Style.
Regards Rudyard

 

[Philip Chua]

Hi Avto

Thanks so much for your Post. Most interesting. Here is a gun from my collection: Would this be they style of musket you are referring to ?
If so, I've always thought this gun to be Rumelian. So, it may actually come from Zeytun ? If so, that is good information.
In your photos, I immediately noticed the unique shape of the butt stock. And you mention carvings.

Rick

View attachment 341536

My goodness the carving on that piece

 

[AvtoGaz]

Thanks guys much appreciated

Yes, your piece is most certainly from Zeytun. I am not quite sure what he based it on, but the Rumelian classification comes from Tirris book. Besides the documentation in museums, period literature, another surefire pointer is a shape which often appears on the buttsocks of these. The "Arevakhatch", or Armenian eternity symbol, an ancient symbol which has been used on Armenian (and Georgian) art since ancient times.

Here are some more pictures, as well as a truly splendid example (likely belonging to a very rich man or even one of the princes) that I found while looking through Turkish auctions.

 

[rickystl]

Avto: OK. Armenian/Zeyton. Thank you so much for the correct identification. I'll make the correction in my records. This would not be the first time the museums or reference books were wrong. LOL. Good to have a correct I.D. Yes, the butt stock shape on these muskets is unusual. It's a bit like the heel and toe are in opposite shape compared to what you would normally see. Also interesting is the extensive carving is only on the butt stock and wrist area, similar to the examples in your photos.
The musket I own above is in very good condition. Only missing it's ramrod (which I'll have to make one day). What's interesting is that the mounts are all silver with that blueish-purple enamel over the silver. There is an old name for that but it escapes me at the moment. Cloisonne ? I'll post some additional photos.

Rick

 

[cyten]

I'm so glad you decided to join the forum, @AvtoGaz . It's a real treat to have someone with such extensive knowledge in Armenian arms share some info!

 

[rickystl]

I'm so glad you decided to join the forum, @AvtoGaz . It's a real treat to have someone with such extensive knowledge in Armenian arms share some info!

I second that. Welcome to the Forum AvtoGaz !!

Rick

 

[Barud]

The Trigger guard & the Sling button suggest addition's by more western Europe user

Certainly possible. These were captured during the Great Turkish War, as far as I know, and it seems there was a fad during that era to use/show off Ottoman items as to signify that the user had participated in the war and earned loot. I've seen a couple of Ottoman muskets modified for European tastes from that era.

Wanted to post specifically about these guns, as I noticed they were misidentified on this forum (And in the collecting world in general).

These are Armenian guns from Zeytun, usually called "Zeytun Acari". Zeytun is a small region located in the Marash province of modern-day Turkey. Long story short it was ruled by 4 independent Armenian princes, who fought many times in the 19th century to preserve their autonomy. Much like in parts of the Balkans like Albania and Montenegro, everyone in Zeytun, from the local Princes to barbers and porters, was armed. This explains the relatively large number of these, especially in Turkey I hear they are much more common. The guns were produced locally from local metal deposits. Because of their reputation as fierce warriors, the Zeytunians were often hired to work as caravan drivers, guards, and in general traded through their own caravans, which explains why some of these ended up in neighboring regions. These are misidentified in Western Arms literature (Tirri calls it Rumelian, for example), but in the Turkish collecting community, to the descendants of Zeytunians, and in relevant Western literature from the 19th century it is clearly identified.

Thanks guys much appreciated

Yes, your piece is most certainly from Zeytun. I am not quite sure what he based it on, but the Rumelian classification comes from Tirris book. Besides the documentation in museums, period literature, another surefire pointer is a shape which often appears on the buttsocks of these. The "Arevakhatch", or Armenian eternity symbol, an ancient symbol which has been used on Armenian (and Georgian) art since ancient times.

Here are some more pictures, as well as a truly splendid example (likely belonging to a very rich man or even one of the princes) that I found while looking through Turkish auctions.

We'd actually discussed the Zeytunis some years back, but I had no clue about its details such as the Arevakhatch - it is certainly nice to have someone learned in Armenian culture to teach us more about these svelte firearms. However, I must say that the "splendid example" may be a modern reproduction/modification. Decorative Zeytunis are still built in the eastern parts of Turkey, some from cannibalized original parts, some from scratch, and the barrel bands and the plate on the stock remind me of the garish work done by modern reproducers (there's a smaller but similarly annoying trend of such tacky decorations on Shishanes).

As an example of the modern reproductions, here's a massive decorative Zeytuni built in Kahramanmaraş during the pandemic:

 

[rickystl]

Hi Barud

LOL !!!! How long is that barrel ??? Imagine what that would cost to ship. LOL

Rick