Oval Bolt Stops

[rodwha]

The Walker and 1st Dragoon, along with a few others, have oval bolt stops with no lead. Does anyone with these find them not lock up properly from time to time? I couldn’t imagine being in a situation and have a situation where my pistol doesn’t fire!

 

[Jappo]

I have both and never have had a problem with that. My ASM 1st model has a really smooth action. It also has a Uberti/Kirst in it and the round bolt works just as good. I also have a Taylor's for the Walker and it also works great. It also surprised me that it doesn't leave any drag marks. I did smooth out the bolts with hard Arkansas, as well as all the moving parts.

 

[desi23]

I've never had an issue with the oval stops on a pair of Walkers and a 1'st model Dragoon I've owned. Possibly with sufficient use they might begin to skip but heavily worn rectangular stops will also. I always thought that the most likely reason for the change was a simple matter of machine time. Quicker and easier to cut square notches and shape the bolt stop to fit them than cutting an oval hole and rounding the stop to fit it with the machinery they used. Guessing the lead in was developed to ease fitting and ensure engagement even with wear on the parts.

 

[wiscoaster]

My Uberti Walker has normal bolt stops. I can only speculate that's a liberty taken by Uberti. Though I would also speculate is that is the reason Sam Colt changed them for later gun models is that they didn't work all that well.

 

[TNGhost]

I have a Uberti 1st model Dragoon with the ovals. No problems with mine.

I have to agree that the change to rectangles. was matter of simplified and less costly machining by Colt.

 

[CaptainKirk]

Having both a Walker and 1st Dragoon, I can attest to having zero problems with either. If anything, the oval stops seem to lock up tighter than the rectangular leades.

 

[Crow Choker]

While all of my Colt percussion revolvers I had prior to my Walker and Whitneyville Dragoon all had the rectangular slots, I wondered the same thing, ie if they worked as well and were as strong of a lock up. A long time and knowledgeable poster on the CAS City forum posted a well written with CAD pictures comparing the two styles. The poster (MAKO) showed where the oval stops were actually stronger. I've never had any problems with either the Walker of Whitneyville Dragoon with not locking securely or missing a beat, have been shooting both of them for around a dozen years. I'll attempt to find the CAS City post and post the information.

Edit: OK, tried to download CAS post with the oval/rectangular info but unable to do so. My computer skills are no better than me trying to perform brain surgery. I could download to my 'downloads' but when attempting to 'attach' to this thread all I'd get were the avatar pictures. If anyone is interested in the Mako posting go to the CAS City forum and 'The Darksiders Den'. Go to page 31 and around 1/4 the way down is a thread started by Oregon Bill. The last posting was on 11/21/11. It's a two page thread but the Mako info is on page one. Mako's info starts on post #6 about the difference in Colt percussion models and the info on the oval vs rectangular bolt cuts is on posting #9 and following. Good info. Apologize for failure to post CAS thread, why my 'endeavor to persevere' with shooting vs computer high-jinks is better. CC

 

[B P Arn]

I have had a few revolvers with oval stops. No problems of any kind.

 

[M. De Land]

The Walker and 1st Dragoon, along with a few others, have oval bolt stops with no lead. Does anyone with these find them not lock up properly from time to time? I couldn’t imagine being in a situation and have a situation where my pistol doesn’t fire!

My new Walker has a late bolt drop that may need correcting eventually if hand nose seating wear doesn't make it self correct. If the bolt drops on the edge of the notch it can slowly peen the notch at the edge and stop the bolt from fully engaging the notch.
I am an early bolt drop advocate any way if it has a clean lift and notch clear, before rotation as it (bolt spring pressure) helps brake cylinder spin inertia and eases the bolt slamming into the back side of the notch. It's also easier on the frame window the bolt drops through.

 

[M. De Land]

I have both and never have had a problem with that. My ASM 1st model has a really smooth action. It also has a Uberti/Kirst in it and the round bolt works just as good. I also have a Taylor's for the Walker and it also works great. It also surprised me that it doesn't leave any drag marks. I did smooth out the bolts with hard Arkansas, as well as all the moving parts.

Yeah, I always like to break the edge of the bolt crown with a stone an to polish it if needed to prevent any chance of galling the cylinder. A rub line from and early drop never causes any harm if the bolt lifts cleanly out of the notch before rotation.
Quite often you will notice a contact mark on the back side of the cylinder bolt notch where the bolt is not clearing the notch before rotation. This is a timing issue and is often not noticed and over looked because the bolt dome will cam over the cylinder notch edge and is barely felt. This can occur from hammer cam wear, bolt finger wear or over length hand nose.

 

[Smokerr]

My Uberti Walker has normal bolt stops. I can only speculate that's a liberty taken by Uberti. Though I would also speculate is that is the reason Sam Colt changed them for later gun models is that they didn't work all that well.

I am curious if I am missing something. That seems to say normal aka rectangular and not Oval per a Liberty taken by Uberti.

The 2023 47 Walker I have has what I would call an Oval Bolt Stop. Now its an elongated Oval but its not a rectangle for sure. The picture of the original seems to match but not enough definition to see if its elongated and different in a Uberti 47 Walker.

The Walker and 1st Dragoon, along with a few others, have oval bolt stops with no lead. Does anyone with these find them not lock up properly from time to time? I couldn’t imagine being in a situation and have a situation where my pistol doesn’t fire!

Its a mistake to compare a modern gun reliability with metallic cartridges to what they had back then. I suspect it was common to have a problem of one sort or another with a pistol or a rifle not firing.

One area I wonder about is the quality and quality control of the original caps.

Then you have powder quality and control, size of grains with no standards as well as deterioration over time or even in distribution (from the mfg to the solider or gun owner)

47 Walkers blew up with some regularity. Now its a given that a claim for a blown gun gets you another one and slip the Clerk a few bucks and you don't have to turn in the wrecked one, come up with a story I had to throw it away to grab my other gun and .......... So the reason to carry two revolvers would also have been if one failed.

Some years back I read a very well written book on the war between the Native Americans and the (ahem) Settlers. They had one scout who realized that trying to re-load a rifle when being chased was badly needed but also meant you had to stop running.

Well that was not going to work out well, so he began running and learning how to reload while doing so. Not many could or would spend time working it out. But it was a way to overcome the one shot limitation.

No question there was a lot you could do to improve your odds of it working but none of it would be as given as a modern cartridge in reliability area.

And that was not a given when metallic came out, all sorts of quality issues ensued. More than one WWI fighter pilot loaded his own ammo belts inspected each cartridge to be sure at least on the surface it was not visible damaged.

 

[45D]

I am curious if I am missing something. That seems to say normal aka rectangular and not Oval per a Liberty taken by Uberti.

The 2023 47 Walker I have has what I would call an Oval Bolt Stop. Now its an elongated Oval but its not a rectangle for sure. The picture of the original seems to match but not enough definition to see if its elongated and different in a Uberti 47 Walker.



Its a mistake to compare a modern gun reliability with metallic cartridges to what they had back then. I suspect it was common to have a problem of one sort or another with a pistol or a rifle not firing.

One area I wonder about is the quality and quality control of the original caps.

Then you have powder quality and control, size of grains with no standards as well as deterioration over time or even in distribution (from the mfg to the solider or gun owner)

47 Walkers blew up with some regularity. Now its a given that a claim for a blown gun gets you another one and slip the Clerk a few bucks and you don't have to turn in the wrecked one, come up with a story I had to throw it away to grab my other gun and .......... So the reason to carry two revolvers would also have been if one failed.

Some years back I read a very well written book on the war between the Native Americans and the (ahem) Settlers. They had one scout who realized that trying to re-load a rifle when being chased was badly needed but also meant you had to stop running.

Well that was not going to work out well, so he began running and learning how to reload while doing so. Not many could or would spend time working it out. But it was a way to overcome the one shot limitation.

No question there was a lot you could do to improve your odds of it working but none of it would be as given as a modern cartridge in reliability area.

And that was not a given when metallic came out, all sorts of quality issues ensued. More than one WWI fighter pilot loaded his own ammo belts inspected each cartridge to be sure at least on the surface it was not visible damaged.

There's absolutely no reason a cap gun can't be as mechanically/ operationally accurate as any cartridge revolver and many are ( I make um every day!!).

Mike

 

[45D]

A rub line from and early drop never causes any harm if the bolt lifts cleanly out of the notch before rotation.

May not cause "harm" but shows a timing problem ( as far as the designers are concerned).

Quite often you will notice a contact mark on the back side of the cylinder bolt notch where the bolt is not clearing the notch before rotation. This is a timing issue and is often not noticed and over looked because the bolt dome will cam over the cylinder notch edge and is barely felt. This can occur from hammer cam wear, bolt finger wear or over length hand nose.

Well that is usually a sign of a too long hand. A heavy bolt spring isn't necessary and will accelerate wear (which shouldn't exist with a 4lb. max pressure and a dab of grease) where wear should never be an issue. The properly fitted and hardened hand shouldn't be a "wear" area either ( nor contact at full ****).

Mike

 

[M. De Land]

May not cause "harm" but shows a timing problem ( as far as the designers are concerned).



Well that is usually a sign of a too long hand. A heavy bolt spring isn't necessary and will accelerate wear (which shouldn't exist with a 4lb. max pressure and a dab of grease) where wear should never be an issue. The properly fitted and hardened hand shouldn't be a "wear" area either ( nor contact at full ****).

Mike

I agree on the hand length part but I'll wait a bit as the hand nose and ratchet teeth, cam and bolt fingers mate to see if I need to correct the timing a bit. I don't think a timing correction will be needed but if so it's no big deal.

 

[Flint1]

I have Ubertis Whitneyville Dragoon and 1st Model Dragoon. The bolt stops are an elongated oval. I had read Uberti did that. On the original Colts of those models the bolt stops are a true oval from the pictures I have seen I don't know if that is easier for Uberti or what their reason is.

 

[Smokerr]

There's absolutely no reason a cap gun can't be as mechanically/ operationally accurate as any cartridge revolver and many are ( I make um every day!!).

Mike

Mike:

It seems to me its much harder to achieve the reliability with a BP. Powders are stable now, but caps? None of the mfg agree, at least from what I have seen Rem and CCI number 11 don't agree on dimensions.

I have not had a cap jam on a modern revolver! Not question in my mind that your work makes them a lot better, but my take is you also better have figured out what caps are right and work and do you need after market cones to asist that? I got them for my Pietta NMA from Slix Springs and I did not see any difference in how the factory cones worked.

I am saying the 11 caps did not seem right for either cone (and I was told to get the shorter cones for the NMA by Slix Springs and I don't think that helped).

The RWS 1075 have been very good for me, so maybe those are true 10s? And maybe true 10s would work but whose number 10?

Flip side is I stuff a primer and powder into my unmentioned 47 Walker cylinder and no failures to go boom (can't remember a pistol primer failure ever regardless of mfg)

 

[B P Arn]

I have Ubertis Whitneyville Dragoon and 1st Model Dragoon. The bolt stops are an elongated oval. I had read Uberti did that. On the original Colts of those models the bolt stops are a true oval from the pictures I have seen I don't know if that is easier for Uberti or what their reason is.

What's the difference between an elongated oval and a true oval?

 

[CaptainKirk]

What's the difference between an elongated oval and a true oval?

Right?!

 

[CaptainKirk]

My Uberti Walker has normal bolt stops. I can only speculate that's a liberty taken by Uberti. Though I would also speculate is that is the reason Sam Colt changed them for later gun models is that they didn't work all that well.

I'd like to see pictures of that. Every ASM and Uberti Walker I've ever come across has oval stops as did the originals. The 2nd Dragoon was the first model Colt to have rectangular notches.

 

[wiscoaster]

I'd like to see pictures of that. Every ASM and Uberti Walker I've ever come across has oval stops as did the originals. The 2nd Dragoon was the first model Colt to have rectangular notches.

OK:

Edit to add: I screwed up. See later posts.