Pan priming ....

[Sparkitoff]

Yesterday I set out to really experiment with my flintlock rifle to determine how to get the best and quickest ignition. It has been fired approximately 100 shots and is sighted in where I want it with an accurate load. It has also been a several hunts (where only one or two shots were taken during a week). Nonetheless, there are times when the ignition seems a little slow and I have had 8:100 "flash in the pans".

Keep in mind this does have a good cock and frizzen and a new flint. The touch-hole is of a Jim Chambers style. All this work with rifle mechanics was done already so this experiment was just related to the powder in the pan.

I did this at home and without full charges. I put 40 grains Goex FFFg down the barrel and seated a lubed cork cut to diameter (I use FFFg in the most accurate load). The important part that I was experimenting with was the pan priming. I used FFFg and FFFFg in different amounts. I also moved the initial placement in the pan. Eventually I figured out what gave repeated quick ignition.

Here is where I would like input. I ended up with FFFFg being more reliable than the FFFg. The amount of prime is what caught me off guard. I started with a thin line across the pan. I tried little "piles" near the touch-hole or in the center. Then I increased a little at a time.
This rifle seems to like two full discharges from my priming flask and that results in a nearly full pan. It also prefers a slight increase towards the touch-hole. I have read and heard so many times about 1/4, 1/3 or 1/2 pan being right. I'm not sure why this rifle wants a nearly full pan.

Should I just go with it because it works? Is there any concern about this? Any theory about why it wants so much powder in the pan?

 

[Juice Jaws]

" Should I just go with it because it works?" YES of course, if it works for you and you are happy forget what all the experts say. I always tell new people, you will get 100 ideas about the right way to load, shoot, and clean your firearm. Pick the one that works for you and stay with it, no matter how much some expert tells its wrong or will not work. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Basically, go with what works best.

With the full pan, you get a bit longer burn time and more heat to the internal powder chamber.

I prefer the line of priming powder across the bottom of the pan. That increases the likelihood that sparks coming off the frizzen will flash the powder and ignite the charge. My Bess like a pretty full pan.

A lot of performance issues can be resolved by improving lock geometry to get a scrape along the face of the frozen for more sparks. You want the pan powder slightly below the bottom of the touch so the flame from the burning pan powder is hottest near the touch hole. A coned touch hole liner will bring powder closer to the flame for quicker ignition. What we have to watch out for is how to prevent fouling from filling that internal cone. One method is to pick the touch hole. Use a thin pipe cleaner to wipe away some internal fouling. Also, if you wipe between shots, don't wipe all the way to the breech. Just wipe to about where the ball seats. Use a loose jag to let the wiping patch ride over the fouling and grab the patch to pull fouling out of the bore not wipe fouling into the breech.

Once again, use the method you find works best. Shoot a lot. Practice and observation are your friends.

 

[Hawgeye]

My Chambers deluxe Siler likes about half a pan of 4f sloped away from the touch hole. My Thompson Hawken likes the same amount sloped to the touch hole. I don't try to over think things. I try to use what the rifle likes.

 

[FishDFly]

Folks talk about where to put the prime in the pan, away from the touch hole or toward the touch hole, lots of debate here over the years.

After closing the frizzen and shouldering the rifle or lifting the pistol, were is the priming powder now in the pan after moving the gun? If you decide not to shoot and take the gun down and then raise it again to shoot, where is the priming powder?

If squirrel hunting and raising the rifle to fire at a squirrel at the top of a tree, where is the priming powder now?

Believe folks worry to much.

 

[tenngun]

Amen brother. I fill my pan to a ‘bit’ below the touch hole, rap the lock with my finger knuckle a couple-three times snap the frizzen shut and fire away... or walk away when hunting. I prime with what’s in the Horn 2 or 3.

 

[Rifleman1776]

This rifle seems to like two full discharges from my priming flask and that results in a nearly full pan. It also prefers a slight increase towards the touch-hole.

From here, that strikes me as an indication your touch hole is too small. The flint rifle I used for many years had a Allen built Siler lock. It only needed a thin line of primer across the bottom of the pan. I checked frequently for shifting when hunting. This lock was very reliable. What size is your touch hole? A good lock can give as much as 50% reliability without any primer in the pan.

 

[George]

Believe folks worry to much.

I agree. I shoot a double flint shotgun a fair amount, and it makes it obvious all the discussions about where the priming has to be in the pan are a bit overblown, IMHO. Whichever way you tilt the gun that's good for one pan has to be bad for the other. I never think about it.

I think if you have a well designed lock it's not critical how much prime you use or where it is in the pan. Even upside down, it will shoot.

Spence

 

[M. De Land]

Yeah, always listen to what your rifle is saying! I learned of and started using Meal-D from Goex for my priming which is black powder dust it is so fine. It lights instantly in both my flint pistols and would say provides a more vigorous flash being so fine. I have not tested it in humid conditions so that could be a negative, I just don't know about that aspect yet but for general use I prefer it to any other priming.
Also, I go with the idea of full pans of powder as the more area of powder surface the shower of sparks has to land on the more certain the ignition and with the speed of the Null-b (Swiss) or Meal-D (Goex) burn, there does not appear to be much if any hesitation.
The other reason I like full pans is there is less shifting of powder positioning when the frizzen closes down on the priming.

 

[M. De Land]

Yesterday I set out to really experiment with my flintlock rifle to determine how to get the best and quickest ignition. It has been fired approximately 100 shots and is sighted in where I want it with an accurate load. It has also been a several hunts (where only one or two shots were taken during a week). Nonetheless, there are times when the ignition seems a little slow and I have had 8:100 "flash in the pans".

Keep in mind this does have a good cock and frizzen and a new flint. The touch-hole is of a Jim Chambers style. All this work with rifle mechanics was done already so this experiment was just related to the powder in the pan.

I did this at home and without full charges. I put 40 grains Goex FFFg down the barrel and seated a lubed cork cut to diameter (I use FFFg in the most accurate load). The important part that I was experimenting with was the pan priming. I used FFFg and FFFFg in different amounts. I also moved the initial placement in the pan. Eventually I figured out what gave repeated quick ignition.

Here is where I would like input. I ended up with FFFFg being more reliable than the FFFg. The amount of prime is what caught me off guard. I started with a thin line across the pan. I tried little "piles" near the touch-hole or in the center. Then I increased a little at a time.
This rifle seems to like two full discharges from my priming flask and that results in a nearly full pan. It also prefers a slight increase towards the touch-hole. I have read and heard so many times about 1/4, 1/3 or 1/2 pan being right. I'm not sure why this rifle wants a nearly full pan.

Should I just go with it because it works? Is there any concern about this? Any theory about why it wants so much powder in the pan?

A couple more things I feel are just as, if not more important than pan powder placement, is flash hole positioning (centered for and aft and in sunset position vertically) and having the flash hole exterior counter sunk to funnel in the flash.
I've never cared for the interior of the flash hole being counter sunk for the same reason, as it funnels out breech pressure. The main charge has no need of being placed closer to the pan charge if the flash hole is of the right diameter and position.

 

[jrmflintlock]

Once I opened up my touch hole a little to what my rifles like, flash in the pan is pretty non existent! I prime with whatever I load the main charge with and fill the pan. As others have said, this reduces the chance of the prime shifting while I move around.

But do what works for you!!

 

[Rat]

My Bess likes a lot, my Jeager does not seem to care. When hunting it may be anywhere in the pan. I've developed the "flintlock shake", where when I carry the rifle/musket in my right hand, I give it this little shake, which consistently positions the powder in the middle of the pan. Of course when a shot presents it's self, who knows how the rifle is being carried, and where the prime is, so with a flinter the more important thing is follow-through, and keeping the sights on target no matter how long ignition takes. Same with any rifle I guess, flint, cap, or modern.

I have found, and this may not be true, or my perceptions way off, but that for hunting, I like to pour in about 20 grains of fg, then the rest of my charge of ffg. The fg just seems to lay against the vent better, and catch the flash better, and go off quicker. Sometimes the ffg seems to dribble out a bit leaving some air space. ?? Maybe it's just not getting packed down enough, I'm not part of the pound on the ram-rod crowd. But again, the fg seems to pack up against the vent nice and tight, and more better. ??

 

[FishDFly]

Yeah, always listen to what your rifle is saying! I learned of and started using Meal-D from Goex for my priming which is black powder dust it is so fine. It lights instantly in both my flint pistols and would say provides a more vigorous flash being so fine. I have not tested it in humid conditions so that could be a negative, I just don't know about that aspect yet but for general use I prefer it to any other priming.
Also, I go with the idea of full pans of powder as the more area of powder surface the shower of sparks has to land on the more certain the ignition and with the speed of the Null-b (Swiss) or Meal-D (Goex) burn, there does not appear to be much if any hesitation.
The other reason I like full pans is there is less shifting of powder positioning when the frizzen closes down on the priming.

7f powder is great for priming, most all Line Shooters use it.

In September I shot my flintlock pistols during the rain in Friendship. Keeping the priming powder from turning to mush was a challenge. One of the top shooters told me on Monday after me telling him my problems he said that 2F, 3F AND 4F are coated to keep the powder from absorbing moisture, but that 7F was not treated. He said in high humidity to use 4F, not 7F.

 

[FishDFly]

I agree. I shoot a double flint shotgun a fair amount, and it makes it obvious all the discussions about where the priming has to be in the pan are a bit overblown, IMHO. Whichever way you tilt the gun that's good for one pan has to be bad for the other. I never think about it.

I think if you have a well designed lock it's not critical how much prime you use or where it is in the pan. Even upside down, it will shoot.

Spence

You bring up an interesting point, I have seen under hammer (cock) flintlock pistols which are upside down compared to side lock flintlock and they fire each time, so much for banking the prime.

 

[FishDFly]

I borrowed this from another place:

"mix up a cap tin worth of bees wax/bear lard (deer tallow is ok too) the consistency of peanut butter, put a SMALL bead around the pan/frizzen after its been primed and close the frizzen down on the seal."

Made me wonder if those who need a lot of priming powder, if the frizzen is not sealing tight on the pan and a lot of the flash from the powder is escaping in the space between them, versus going into the touch hole.

 

[FishDFly]

Beloved saying among German flintlock shooters

"Alles geht umsonst, wenn Engel in die Pfanne brunzt"

(All in for naught if an angel pisses in the pan)

 

[Vaino]

Here's a scenario that might happen when switching from a perc gun to a flintlock....some will have a factory flintlock w/ a patent breech that not only yields slower ignition but also unreliable ignition....and the dia of the TH and the amount and location of the prime are blamed. Patent breeches when used w/ a flintlock are an unnecessary complication.

W/ a flat faced breechplug and if the flint is sharp and a TH liner w/ an internal "funnel" w/ a properly located 1/16 dia TH is used , why would one have slow, varying ignition times or even a failure to ignite the charge? The only things I could think of would be swabbing w/ a wet patch which pushes the fouling into the "funnel", a wet charge or prime or a dull flint.

Don"t think that the amount or location of the prime causes noticeable lag times of ignition or failure to ignite the charge if the rifle has the requirements stated in the previous paragraph. . If a shooter started w/ a perc rifle, chances are that the slower and somewhat varying ignition times of a flintlock would be noticed by the shooter......just takes a little getting used to.

My squirrel LR has a flat faced plug, a 1/4-28 SS Allen set screw w/ the hex on the bore side and a 1/16 dia TH located properly. The pan prime varies a whole lot.....sometimes my primer throws an amount that has to be leveled w/ the finger to allow the frizzen to completely close and other times barely enough prime, but it always goes bang w/ a fairly sharp flint. Prime location in the pan was never a concern even w/ all the position changes of the rifle when hunting.

I use a bronze wire brush to remove fouling after a number of shots and have never had a clogged funnel or TH and don't carry a TH pick when hunting.

I would think that my squirrel LR is a good, trouble free example of how a flintlock operated in1780 when the owner had to supply food on the table and at times to stay alive....Sorry for the loooong post.....Fred

 

[Rat]

I borrowed this from another place:

"mix up a cap tin worth of bees wax/bear lard (deer tallow is ok too) the consistency of peanut butter, put a SMALL bead around the pan/frizzen after its been primed and close the frizzen down on the seal."

Made me wonder if those who need a lot of priming powder, if the frizzen is not sealing tight on the pan and a lot of the flash from the powder is escaping in the space between them, versus going into the touch hole.

"frizzen not sealing tight to the pan" and letting the flash escape?? That's a joke...right?

 

[FishDFly]

"frizzen not sealing tight to the pan" and letting the flash escape?? That's a joke...right?

Not one bit at all .

Look at the crappy M/L kits put together today on the Forum and pictures showing the gaps in the inletting, Builders Forum for example. See CVA and Traditions kit photos. See where people who are putting kits together and the parts do not even come close to fitting.

Cheap kits are composed of parts from the factory which did not fit on assembly, thus they went in to kits so they could be sold.

 

[George]

Not one bit at all .

What brand is your lock? I've never seen one before where the frizzen stays closed while the gun fires.

Spence