Pantent Breech

[roundball]

I wouldn't have a clue about that...I found it by googling around for articles on Nock's patent breech a couple years ago...just trying to give some insight to the poster who asked the basic question about what a patent breech was all about...wasn't trying to provide any museum quality notorized document from a patent office, etc...just trying to help a fellow shooter
:thumbsup:

 

[Dphar]

Well, a picture is worth a thousand words. No sense trying to describe what's already been illustrated.

Yes, but the shape of that cavity is very wrong, whoever drew it was not an engineer :shake:

Baker says he did the experiments, described it to Nock and suggested he patent it. This is probably true :hatsoff:

Actually Nock was a gunsmith and not an engineer and designed it that way because, IIRC, the shotguns patterned better and gave better velocity. I think J. N. George discusses this in "English Guns and Rifles". But I am too lazy to look it up right now.
I would point out that many of the patent breeches used on most modern mass produced MLs are poorly designed, crudely finished and poorly installed.

Dan

 

[Dphar]

I got out Greener's The Gun and its Developement (1896 ed). He states:
"The latter was invented by Nock in 1787, with the object of getting a front ignition of the powder charge..... by hollowing out this plug so that part at least of teh powder charge should be behind the touch-hole, Nock expected to obtain stronger shooting and avoid the blowing out of the grains of powder by the explosion of the rear part of the charge. Sporting guns in those days were of small bore-24 or less-and the Nock patent breech was advantageous."

This at least partly explains reasoning behind the "faulty" design of the breech.

Dan

 

[TANSTAAFL]

I think I read somewhere that Baker invented sliced bread too.

Wrongo, methinks that 'twar the Earl of Sandwich. :rotf:

 

[Dphar]

Hi Gray Wolf

I can see this is really important to you, so I will admit I have never taken one apart made by Mr Nock. But I think I have 3 shotguns with patent breeches by other makers, (the one in the photo is by Egg), all of which agree with Andy Courtney's picture. I'll watch out for a copy of Nock's patent, must have one somewhere, and I'll remember where it is for next time we do this :thumbsup:

best regards

Squire Robin

I now see I have misread part of what has been posted on the Nock breech. I thought the design was being faulted and apparently its been a discussion of drawing variations.

I think the differences in the drawings are likely a result of the different ways they were made. I seriously doubt that there is much difference in the function of the various Nock breeches shown here. Frankly I think the one from Greeners book is the best of the lot. The second one posted (Andy Courtney) thins the threaded part of the plug more than I would like. But thats just me.
I have a 16 bore flint rifle in the works and have not created the internal part of the breech yet. Its a Manton recessed design but I don't think I will use the Nock powder cavity design pictured here. But am undecided.

Dan

 

[roundball]

I would point out that many of the patent breeches used on most modern mass produced MLs are poorly designed, crudely finished and poorly installed.

:hmm:
One mass production brand of muzzleloaders are those made by Thompson Center...and when I inspect them closely they seem very well made, well finished, and there's no questioning their performance and reliability of course.

So I'd like to know specifically what brand of 'patent breeches' you're referring to and upon what established documented criteria do you base such a claim?

 

[robinghewitt]

The second one posted (Andy Courtney) thins the threaded part of the plug more than I would like. But thats just me.

Okay guys, I give up, obviously the TC percussion breech is a dead ringer for Nock's original and I am just some weirdo disruptive geek who can't stop faking photographs :surrender:

Nuff said :blah:

 

[roundball]

Okay guys, I give up, obviously the TC percussion breech is a dead ringer for Nock's original

Did you read that somewhere ?

 

[Twisted_1in66]

Okay guys, I give up, ***SNIP***
I am just some weirdo disruptive geek***SNIP***

Yeah, but you're OUR disruptive geek! :rotf:

Seriously Squire, I don't think anyone was saying that TC's version of patent breech was the same as the original Nock's patten breech. :v Original questioner asked what a patent breech was and this thread went way beyond that into the intracies and provenance of different designs of patent breech.

By the way, loved that picture with the clay on the end of the tube demonstrating the shape of the breech of that gun!

Twisted_1in66 :thumbsup:

 

[roundball]

Exactly...in fact I intentionally commented that TC's version differs from 'Nock's Breech' in that it's more like the "chambered breech" in the sketch I provided...NOT the original Nock's breech configuration

 

[robinghewitt]

Yeah, but you're OUR disruptive geek! :rotf:

Aw, shucks :redface: :grin:

 

[Mike Brooks]

I have original flint guns with Nock patented breeches, they work great. Instant ignition and hard hitting. My 18 bore will break skeets all day loaded with 5/8oz shoot and an equal volume of powder. I can also use full size cusion wads with out blowing holes in the pattern too. I have always attributed this to the Nock breech, but have no proof. I've also made a modified version, mostly a chambered breeech, with a large chamber, and the vent entering the back of the chamber. I eliminated Nocks "anti chamber". This works well to, but I don't think it's as hard hitting, and I usually have to use 1/2 wads in these guns. Both are quite fast and dependable, you can shoot all day and never get a fouled breech. None of that anoying picking , patting and knocking the gun just right so it will go off. Just load , dump in some prime and SHOOT!

 

[Mike Brooks]

All of this Nock conversation reminds me I have two Nock basket cases that need stocks. One a 20 bore double with standard breeches. And a early (for Nock) 16 bore single barrel with his patent breech. I gotta get on those before I keel over dead one day..... :hmm:
And then there's that Swallow double 20 bore that needs the locks reconverted..... and then there's that.....well, you fellas get the picture :haha:

 

[Puffer]

Okay guys, I give up, ***SNIP***
I am just some weirdo disruptive geek***SNIP***

Yeah, but you're OUR disruptive geek! :rotf:

Seriously Squire, I don't think anyone was saying that TC's version of patent breech was the same as the original Nock's patten breech. :v Original questioner asked what a patent breech was and this thread went way beyond that into the intracies and provenance of different designs of patent breech.

By the way, loved that picture with the clay on the end of the tube demonstrating the shape of the breech of that gun!

Twisted_1in66 :thumbsup:

I AGREE. :hatsoff:

As to the H/C accurcy o the the TC "Patent" Breech (???? IMHO ) BUT that might be true of any Mass produced repo. Example -- I own 2 Pedersoli Mortimer repo.s ( a rifle & a Shotgun. Both have "Patent" breeches. H.Lee Munson (the Mortimer Gunmakers * 1753-1923 ) shows a pic of the "Pedersoli" rifle & warns that it is so close to the original, that it has been passed of as one Does this mean that the "patent" breech is an EXACT copy of the original (or a seviving original)??? The MAJOR ???,for me, when I got the gun, was the same as the original poster had,ie:what is a "patent breech", how do I clean it & what prob.s am I going to run into when firing it in long matches.

I used the above "gen. Pic., to give me insight as to what I was dealing with.On a PRACTICALlevel, I realy DO NOT care if it is HC. :surrender: (NOTE - Yes, as a "historian, I am interested)

Puffer

 

[roundball]

"...you can shoot all day and never get a fouled breech. None of that anoying picking , patting and knocking the gun just right so it will go off. Just load , dump in some prime and SHOOT!

And that's where it's at for me...chambered breech, Nock's breech, TC breech, generic breech, or whatever...as long as it let's me shoot, load, shoot, load, shoot, load for about 50 cycles without fooling with it every shot...then go home and clean the rifle...can't imagine myself ever owning a ML without some functional variation of a patent breech
:thumbsup:

 

[Dphar]

As to the H/C accurcy o the the TC "Patent" Breech (???? IMHO ) BUT that might be true of any Mass produced repo. Example -- I own 2 Pedersoli Mortimer repo.s ( a rifle & a Shotgun. Both have "Patent" breeches. H.Lee Munson (the Mortimer Gunmakers * 1753-1923 ) shows a pic of the "Pedersoli" rifle & warns that it is so close to the original, that it has been passed of as one Does this mean that the "patent" breech is an EXACT copy of the original (or a seviving original)???

Puffer

I think it means some people are more gullible than others. I have yet to see an off the shelf Italian reproduction of anything I could mistake for an original unless seriously modified and it would still have "problems".
But there are people out there that can do very good fakes if given a starting point.

Dan

 

[Dphar]

I would point out that many of the patent breeches used on most modern mass produced MLs are poorly designed, crudely finished and poorly installed.

:hmm:
One mass production brand of muzzleloaders are those made by Thompson Center...and when I inspect them closely they seem very well made, well finished, and there's no questioning their performance and reliability of course.

So I'd like to know specifically what brand of 'patent breeches' you're referring to and upon what established documented criteria do you base such a claim?

How many breeches have you removed from your mass produced MLs? Considering how difficult it used to be I suspect none.

I am confidant that you will find a "fouling trap" at the end of the plug's threads if you remove one.
I have recently debreeched a percussion "mountain rifle" by a big name gun maker that had a poorly designed and installed breech. It was pretty crudely machined (poorly finished if you will) internally as well. This rifle was a high end priced mass produced rifle.
It takes too much time to properly fit a breech in a barrel going on a rifle that sells for what the average mass produced rifle sells for. I suspect it would near double the man hours.
I usually won't work on these things at all but a friend talked me into the mountain rifle during a moment of weakness.
No. I won't name names.
BTDT and its not worth it.
I have been shooting and building MLs for over 40 years so I did not just form the opinion last week.

Dan

 

[robinghewitt]

I own 2 Pedersoli Mortimer repo.s ( a rifle & a Shotgun. Both have "Patent" breeches

Nock's breech is purely a flint shotgun thing and I have never seen it being used on a rifle

Later on there were percussion breechings that placed the nipple behind the back end of the barrel but that wasn't Nock's breech, no ante-chamber.

This is where it gets confusing for li'l' ol' me. It seems that in modern America, any breeching that extends the powder chamber behind the barrel is called a "Patent" breech. Over here, "patent breech" usually means "Nock's patent breeech" :thumbsup:

 

[roundball]

I would point out that many of the patent breeches used on most modern mass produced MLs are poorly designed, crudely finished and poorly installed.

:hmm:
One mass production brand of muzzleloaders are those made by Thompson Center...and when I inspect them closely they seem very well made, well finished, and there's no questioning their performance and reliability of course.

So I'd like to know specifically what brand of 'patent breeches' you're referring to and upon what established documented criteria do you base such a claim?

How many breeches have you removed from your mass produced MLs? Considering how difficult it used to be I suspect none.

I am confidant that you will find a "fouling trap" at the end of the plug's threads if you remove one.
I have recently debreeched a percussion "mountain rifle" by a big name gun maker that had a poorly designed and installed breech. It was pretty crudely machined (poorly finished if you will) internally as well. This rifle was a high end priced mass produced rifle.
It takes too much time to properly fit a breech in a barrel going on a rifle that sells for what the average mass produced rifle sells for. I suspect it would near double the man hours.
I usually won't work on these things at all but a friend talked me into the mountain rifle during a moment of weakness.
No. I won't name names.
BTDT and its not worth it.
I have been shooting and building MLs for over 40 years so I did not just form the opinion last week.

Dan

OK, lets review:

The question/issue wasn't how long you'd been "shooting and building MLs" as it's irrelevant to this thread...indeed, it just makes your across the board statement even worse.

The fact is that you made a sweeping generalized negative comment about mass produced patent breeches and my question was in that vein...ie: how many GM and TC breechplugs have you removed and polished, and it's clear now that the answer is none.

Another correction is that yes, I have two TC breechplugs removed sitting in my workshop...the photo of the TC breechplug in this thread is one of them.

And owning / shooting thousands of shots through many TC & GM muzzleloader barrels over the years have proven there are zero problems with GM and TC breechplugs.

So the sweeping across the board statement about "mass produced breechplugs" having problems is incorrect...needed to be clarified before someone who didn't know any better read your post and took it at face value.

Surprised you didn't know that after "building & shooting muzzleloaders for 40 years".

:v

 

[xxgrampa]

greetings rancher,

always thought, a 'patent breech' was a breech plug that incorporated the ignition system, touch hole or nipple, within it's self. and not in the barrel.

a tc patent breech would be an example of this. if you remove the breech, you also removed the ignition system.

a 'noch' would just be one of many variations of a patent breech. don't know who makes a 'noch' maybe someone still does :hmm: .

don't think you have to worry about an 'anti-chamber' on any modern mfg gun..

..ttfn..grampa..

PS.. on a recent post, roundball had a picture of a tc breech. on that you can see where the nipple screws into the breech plug..