paper cartrages

[Mean Gene]

I have only recently started using paper cartridges only a couple of times now. When I went to clean my gun today I was surprised to find one cone plugged by paper same as last time. Last time (or rather the first time) I thought it was the twisted ends that caused it, but this time all had folded ends on the powder end. I researched paper cartridges for several months before actually making any and out of all the videos and writings there was no mention of it. Has anyone else had this problem?

 

[rodwha]

I never found any inside the nipples but did often find little shards of paper in the chambers. Eventually I left them to see if they caused any issues. After 3 cylinders full I ran out but never had ignition problems.

Later I tried stump remover which is supposed to make it burn completely, but I gave up on it rather quickly. Ended up making a mess and never actually made in cartridges with them.

 

[wicket]

I seal the end of the cartridge by crimping a slight rim onto the cartridge while it's on the former, and then gluing on a disk of paper. Everything I've experimented with for cartridge paper, with the exception of flash paper and tea bag paper, tends to leave some debris behind, so there's always the potential for debris clogging the nipples I suppose.
It's a problem that's been worked on since at least the 1850's in an effort to create a waterproof clean-burning combustible cartridge with suitable mechanical strength for field service.
J. Henry Ferguson came up with a fairly good solution in 1858 (patent number 24548)based on a salt/acid nitrated non-explosive version of flash paper, not exactly something to try making in the kitchen though.
Something to consider when making cartridges is the adhesive, it has to burn readily, or it will contribute to the fouling problem. I've had good luck with Duco cement thinned with a bit of acetone. It's tricky to use with flash paper cartridges though, since it will dissolve the paper if applied too heavily.

 

[crockett]

You bet and that charred paper fouling can hold an ember, so if you try loading another cartridge in the chamber- could blow up in your face. Make sure you look into the chamber and wait a bit before reloading.
BTW- if you are using cigarette paper, etc.- that is NOT treated the same as the original stuff. The actual chemicals were nitrates and sulfuric acid (If I recall correctly) It was highly corrosive on the gun but the military didn't care.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Are you sure it's not from the percussion caps?
I've had that happen many times....

 

[nhmoose]

to the OP not Clyde

Are your nipples coned? I find it hard to have the paper blow through the small diameter hole in modern nipples.

And yes I have also found debris in the cap side of a nipple that belonged to the cap.

 

[Mean Gene]

It looks and feels like the cigarette paper I've been using.

 

[Mean Gene]

My nipples are slix shot, I don't think it's the Remington #10's that are causing it however the ignition hole is rather large it seems.

 

[Mean Gene]

Thanks for the safety tip I will make a point of giving it time to burn out. Maybe tape the holes on the target while it's cooling down.

 

[Mean Gene]

Thanks for the insight and history too, I might try gluing tissue paper on the back end or switch back to the OEM nipples. The purpose of the slix shot nipples was to stop pulling caps, which has worked just as it should. It could be just a fluke that it happened twice on two different occasions

 

[wicket]

I've been lucky about the hammer pulling caps off stock Pieta cones, it's never happened to me as best I can remember though I have sometimes noticed spent caps marked pretty strongly by the safety notch. All my guns are .36 caliber and I load 15 grains, so maybe it's the light charge that has spared me the problem.

 

[Bon Sauvage]

Perhaps a different paper would help. Cigarette paper is treated with flame retardants. I don't make that many cartridges anymore but when I do I stay away from cigarette papers.

 

[wicket]

That's a good point about flame retardants in cigarette paper Ogre. I've read a number of claims over the years that "cigarette papers already contain potassium nitrate so there's no need to nitrate them". Nobody ever makes the point that if there's anything added to cigarette papers it's a flame retardant. My tests indicate that soaking papers in potassium nitrate contributes little or no advantage anyway, and leaves spattered slag behind to increase the fouling.
Another "well known fact" is that sodium silicate (waterglass) is a good cartridge adhesive because they used it in the "old days". It's a high temperature refractory and only makes the paper less combustible while adding to the fouling.
Once I blow through my remaining supply of caps and have some time to spare, I'm going to start a thread about things that black powder shooters believe that simply aren't true. :nono:

 

[Mean Gene]

I guess I'll have to try using hair rolling papers, I've watched several videos on YouTube where they were using them. Makers of the videos didn't express any concerns about not burning when fired so I guess it's worth a try. Anyone out there given hair rolling papers a try for paper cartridges?

 

[wicket]

I bought some curling papers online and tried them. The price was right, but they did occasionally leave some unburnt paper behind. They seem to be a pretty popular choice, and nobody has mentioned getting a cook-off when using them.
The thought of what would happen if a charge fired as it was being rammed makes my blood run cold, though I suspect that it's unlikely. A safe method is probably to make your cartridges with as little paper as possible, and to alternate between two pistols when shooting.
I did some tests by ramming conventionally tapered paper cartridges (without ball) into sections of glass tubing and watching to see how the cartridges split. They don't split the way people think. There's a little tearing on the side of the cartridge down at the bottom which exposes some of the powder, but no loose powder trickling out to directly catch the flash of the primer, and no tearing of the paper on the base of the cartridge where it contacts the flash hole, thus there's very little direct exposure of powder to any lingering ember left by unburnt cartridge paper.
One final point worth considering is that an unburnt shred of cartridge paper is more likely to smoulder if it's been saturated with potassium nitrate and is functioning like the slow match on a matchlock.

 

[crockett]

My view is that there are a lot of drawbacks to combustible cartridges. On a Colt 1851 Navy the opening is small and so it is difficult to load with a cartridge. The conical needs to be pointed. The powder charges are normally less than maximum and the conicals can twist out of alignment as they are loaded- not very accurate.
Because of their historical significance I think playing around with them a time or two is okay but for field carry, you can use an Altoids tin to carry small powder charges, wads, balls, etc. and have better loads.

 

[rodwha]

I've used them in my Remington NMA and ROA. They accept their accurate powder charges (30 grns for the NMA and 35 grns for the ROA) along with either of my 170 or 195 grn conicals.

Loading them is easy and I've only had one that was a bit difficult as mine aren't tapered much at all.

I tried them because they seemed intriguing, but also because I've had friends with their modern stuff loose interest once it's time to reload. I don't care about the time it takes to measure powder and seat a projectile, but I have thought it convenient for hunting reloads, especially if it were windy. If rifle and revolver loads are premeasured I wouldn't need to carry a flask and measure.

 

[wicket]

Combustible cartridges don't load well for me in a '51 navy either, and I'm not inclined at this point to open out the loading port with a Dremel. They load better in my '61 navies, with the Uberti slightly better than the Pieta. I make my cartridges from 40 gram per square meter rag paper which is heavier than cigarette papers or curling papers and wipes out some of the advantage of using the Lee heeled .375 conical, but they still load easily enough to get them in straight. I have a '58 Uberti Remington on order, and am hoping that with a little work on the Lee .375 mold the gun will handle combustibles well.
In terms of charge, I'm a plinker and perfectly content with 15 grains in a navy, but that's not the maximum charge that can be loaded using a cartridge.
There's a bit of a learning curve to making cartridges, and making them for me is slower than loading loose, but they are quick to load in the gun, and extremely convenient in situations where the shooter isn't inclined to carry all the fixins or burn up range time loose loading.

 

[rodwha]

I had to open up the loading window on my Pietta NMA regardless. Only a ball would load.

Another thing I have done that works is to make powder bags. This would also be good for weighed charges or loading on windy days in the field.

 

[crockett]

For what it is worth, I ended up making paper "speed loaders" These paper tubes are about 1 1/4" long and sealed at the bottom. They have a cap that fits over the top. Each has a powder charge 18-20 gr fffg. I can put 20 plus in an Altoids tin along with 20 balls and caps and wads and have everything I need for reloading in the field. I tried the paper cartridges but only to "bond" with the experience :grin: and I don't even live in California :wink: