Paper cartridges in a rifled gun?

[wishihadgunrights]

I have a traditions deerhunter. Is there any reason I can't make paper cartridges for it? Even though it's rifled? I plan on lining the outside of the paper with lube. So I can't really think why it would be a problem but I don't want to do anything dangerous so I'm just asking for people with more experience.

 

[Sir Boniface Harrison]

Do you intend to load the cartridges in their entirety, like you might in a BP revolver? That may not work for two reasons. Firstly, ignition is to a degree reliant on at least some of the powder charge entering the flash channel. Secondly, your spark - whether from flint or cap - might not be enough to ignite your charge once it has travelled down the flash channel if there is a layer of waxed paper in the way. With revolvers, the spark has less distance to travel so paper cartridges work.

 

[tnlonghunter]

Do you mean pre-loaded paper cartridges like typically used for a smoothbore musket? It certainly would work fine in terms of a pre-charged load, but I don't know how well it would work in terms of patching for a roundball. I don't know whether simply ramming a whole pre-made cartridge down the bore would work, but it might. Something akin to a pre-rolled cartridge for cap-and-ball revolvers....

Paper-patched bullets are certainly a thing for the BPCR crowd. I guess the question here is whether you could find a conical that shot well in your barrel with a paper patch. Could be a fun experiment to try and figure it out, but I'm not sure you'd really gain any kind of ground in terms of efficiency over a ball-board and pre-measured charges for hunting.

 

[wishihadgunrights]

Do you intend to load the cartridges in their entirety, like you might in a BP revolver? That may not work for two reasons. Firstly, ignition is to a degree reliant on at least some of the powder charge entering the flash channel. Secondly, your spark - whether from flint or cap - might not be enough to ignite your charge once it has travelled down the flash channel if there is a layer of waxed paper in the way. With revolvers, the spark has less distance to travel so paper cartridges work.

I intend on biting or tearing the end off then pouring it down first. Then having the convenience of having the ball already wrapped. Then I would just ram that down. So the powder wouldn't be any different. Sounds like from your response and this other person that it should be perfectly fine. Ignition shouldn't be any different. I only want to do this for convenience and to have a bunch of pre-loaded charges.

 

[wishihadgunrights]

Do you mean pre-loaded paper cartridges like typically used for a smoothbore musket? It certainly would work fine in terms of a pre-charged load, but I don't know how well it would work in terms of patching for a roundball. I don't know whether simply ramming a whole pre-made cartridge down the bore would work, but it might. Something akin to a pre-rolled cartridge for cap-and-ball revolvers....

Paper-patched bullets are certainly a thing for the BPCR crowd. I guess the question here is whether you could find a conical that shot well in your barrel with a paper patch. Could be a fun experiment to try and figure it out, but I'm not sure you'd really gain any kind of ground in terms of efficiency over a ball-board and pre-measured charges for hunting.

I basically just want to do this to have a bunch of "rounds" at the ready. I would tear the end off and pour the powder down then ram the rest of it in. Using the paper as a wad/ patch for the ball. I have a bunch of lead balls which is what I would be shooting. They work fine with patches. I believe they're 4.95". Really? I was just curious about this being safe. Because I've only seen it done with smooth bores.

 

[Sir Boniface Harrison]

I intend on biting or tearing the end off then pouring it down first. Then having the convenience of having the ball already wrapped. Then I would just ram that down. So the powder wouldn't be any different. Sounds like from your response and this other person that it should be perfectly fine. Ignition shouldn't be any different. I only want to do this for convenience and to have a bunch of pre-loaded charges.

In which case it would be fine. I used to load my Enfield like this back in my re - enactment days!

 

[wishihadgunrights]

In which case it would be fine. I used to load my Enfield like this back in my re - enactment days!

Great thanks!

 

[Tumbledown]

I basically just want to do this to have a bunch of "rounds" at the ready. I would tear the end off and pour the powder down then ram the rest of it in. Using the paper as a wad/ patch for the ball. I have a bunch of lead balls which is what I would be shooting. They work fine with patches. I believe they're 4.95". Really? I was just curious about this being safe. Because I've only seen it done with smooth bores.

I don't think the paper will provide enough patching, and what there is will get cut up by the rifling.

 

[Tumbledown]

In which case it would be fine. I used to load my Enfield like this back in my re - enactment days!

With minie ball? Those are a different animal than round ball and don't rely on patching to engage the rifling.

 

[Mattox Forge]

That's how is was done by the British with the Baker Rifle.



But, you can also just use charge tubes. It's a lot easier than rolling paper and they are much sturdier.
www.amazon.com/Muzzle-LoadersTM-Blackhorn-Charge-150-Grain-Tubes/dp/B0B6CYS52C

Mike

 

[tnlonghunter]

I basically just want to do this to have a bunch of "rounds" at the ready. I would tear the end off and pour the powder down then ram the rest of it in. Using the paper as a wad/ patch for the ball. I have a bunch of lead balls which is what I would be shooting. They work fine with patches. I believe they're 4.95". Really? I was just curious about this being safe. Because I've only seen it done with smooth bores.

There's no reason it would be unsafe as long as you measure your powder. Now, accurate? That may be a different issue. A lubed cloth patch helps grip the rifling and seal the ball to the bore. You will not get as good a seal with paper, but it might be "good enough", depending on your needs and range.

The other issue is fouling. The lubed patch keeps the fouling soft, making reloads easier and keeping accuracy. If you don't swab the bore between shots, you may end up with so much hard fouling it becomes mostly unmanageable.

 

[FlinterNick]

I have a traditions deerhunter. Is there any reason I can't make paper cartridges for it? Even though it's rifled? I plan on lining the outside of the paper with lube. So I can't really think why it would be a problem but I don't want to do anything dangerous so I'm just asking for people with more experience.

I woudln’t load a rifle with paper cartridges.

I know from discussions with Ed Rayl and Jess Melot that paper can be slightly abrasive and can dull the rifling.

Military guns that used paper cartridges didn’t wrap the ball in paper, the paper was just meant to hold the cartridge and power in one place, the paper was discarded after ward.

 

[IanH]

Paper is no more abrasive than a linen or cotton patch if you do not use the kind that has clay fillers in it. I have fired thousands of paper-patched bullets from modern rifles and only do the polishing thing deliberately with copier paper.

I don't know about round ball in paper for a rifled bore, I doubt it would seal or be accurate.

If you want to use hollow-base bullets, it is a simple matter to wet-patch the bullet with a long patch and tuck the tail so that the tube extends far ahead of the bullet tip. When dry, dip the entire bullet end up to the ogive in melted wax/oil lube and let harden. Then pour your charge into the tube against the nose of the bullet and fold the tail. To load, tear the tail, pour the powder down the muzzle, then turn the cartridge around and thumb-seat the bullet flush and tear off the remainder of the patch flush with the muzzle. Ram the bullet, prime, and fire.

 

[FlinterNick]

Paper is no more abrasive than a linen or cotton patch if you do not use the kind that has clay fillers in it. I have fired thousands of paper-patched bullets from modern rifles and only do the polishing thing deliberately with copier paper.

I don't know about round ball in paper for a rifled bore, I doubt it would seal or be accurate.

If you want to use hollow-base bullets, it is a simple matter to wet-patch the bullet with a long patch and tuck the tail so that the tube extends far ahead of the bullet tip. When dry, dip the entire bullet end up to the ogive in melted wax/oil lube and let harden. Then pour your charge into the tube against the nose of the bullet and fold the tail. To load, tear the tail, pour the powder down the muzzle, then turn the cartridge around and thumb-seat the bullet flush and tear off the remainder of the patch flush with the muzzle. Ram the bullet, prime, and fire.

Thanks for the advice, but I’ll take it from the barrel maker’s opinion, he see’s plenty of ruined rifle barrels.

Besides there are much better methods for securing a ball with a tight seal than paper.

 

[Sir Boniface Harrison]

With minie ball? Those are a different animal than round ball and don't rely on patching to engage the rifling.

No, mine was a smoothbore. I think it started out as rifled. Made by Parker Hale.

 

[sturmkatze]

I intend on biting or tearing the end off then pouring it down first. Then having the convenience of having the ball already wrapped. Then I would just ram that down. So the powder wouldn't be any different. Sounds like from your response and this other person that it should be perfectly fine. Ignition shouldn't be any different. I only want to do this for convenience and to have a bunch of pre-loaded charges.

I’d suggest the plastic “speedloaders” especially the old CVA ones you can still get real cheap on eBay or Amazon. Load them as you watch tv.

 

[Mikekj]

I woudln’t load a rifle with paper cartridges.

Military guns that used paper cartridges didn’t wrap the ball in paper, the paper was just meant to hold the cartridge and power in one place, the paper was discarded after ward.

I suppose the English, and the US during the civil war, did it wrong for a lot of years.
Enfields were indeed loaded with lubed, paper patched, smooth side bullets.
I also understand that long range BP shooters load cartridges with paper patched bullets.

 

[FlinterNick]

I suppose the English, and the US during the civil war, did it wrong for a lot of years.
Enfields were indeed loaded with lubed, paper patched, smooth side bullets.
I also understand that long range BP shooters load cartridges with paper patched bullets.

You’re talking about military rifles that used conical rounds.

I’m talking about round ball rifles.

paper patching a round ball gun isn’t a good idea

 

[FlinterNick]

Thanks for the advice, but I’ll take it from the barrel maker’s opinion, he see’s plenty of ruined rifle barrels.

Besides there are much better methods for securing a ball with a tight seal than paper.

Yes, I’m referring to a patched round ball rifle.

For example an 1803 or 1817 common rifle, Therese were made with 7 grooved rifled barrels that were pretty deep for round balls, paper patching a round ball would be unwise in terms of accuracy and barrel health. as i was told by Ed Rayl, it can be abrasive

Military rifles by enfield and Springfield were designed to use conicals, and can be loaded with paper wrapped bullets, some do some don’t, i think it depends on the bullets skirt.

 

[Nuthatch]

For quick loading, yea, they work. By "work," I mean that they go "boom" and the ball flies out. Accuracy-wise, they stink.

I use pre-measured powder charges in rolled paper wads for hunting (kept in a small, plastic box). I keep the patched balls in a wooden block speed loader. This is the same as keeping pre-measured charges in plastic vials. But the paper rolls are smaller & lighter for backcountry hunts where I want all of my shooting & cleaning supplies for the week to easily fit into my pocket.