Paper patch and grease groove bullets

[Idaholewis]

Here is a Video i Did on Paper Patching for Muzzleloaders

 

[cannonball1]

Here is something a little different from what you usually see with PP bullets. 20# to 24# rag computer paper depending on which gun I am shooting. The bullet is sized then one wrap around the bullet. I found if I glue the end, the flyers all but disappear. For the life of me I cannot make the double wrap group. I have watched several videos, talked to people and todate the Chase Method is the most accurate. Fleener, for me, this is a great topic. I hope other chime in. Thank you.

 

[Idaholewis]

if you want to really learn about paperpatch contact me at contact my email as i can take way beyond what you are doing in to the zone where it never ever fails. go to pineridgeblack powder .com and get my email.

Roger, You really think you can take Fleener way beyond what he’s doing?

“I am a long range ML shooter and I do shoot swiss and have for years. There is a reason that most of us use swiss and it is not because it cost more. The powder we use is just one variable in the shooting. Barrel, bullet design, wads, bullet hardness, powder, physical condition, mental management all play into how well you shoot. Oh and dont forget being able to read the conditions and being able to change your sight settings. All these things will have an impact on your scores.

I have had friends try to switch back to Goex to save some money, but they end up simply going back to Swiss.

I have placed in the top 3 in quite a few matches at Oak Ridge, Friendship, and at 3 World Long Range matches shooting on the USA team. I have 3 National records and one World record at 900 yards shooting swiss powder. I also hold the record at Oakridge for the most X's in the aggregate with 13. Now that does not mean you can not have success shooting Goex or other powders. Like I said, it is just one variable.

Fleener”

 

[Carbon 6]

I think that the Spanish bullet has a bit of oil or lube on them. The French bullet I think was wrapped wet and allowed to dry.

When you run the bullets through a sizing die, it will make them shiny.

Fleener

Must be the colored paper that makes them show up better in film.
Nice topic Art.

 

[cannonball1]

I am going to do what I usually don't do and that is to be a "name dropper". In a good way of course, to give credit where due. Two years ago I made a ML with a fast twist barrel with the intent of shooting PP bullets. I did not know where to go for information and most blogged that Idahoron was the place to go and he got me started and gave me a lot of information. Then I read the information from the site of pineridgeblack powder, so I called Roger and he gave me a passel of information. One of those being all of the information on the Chase System(single wrap). I wasn't happy with the accuracy and Fleener was more than happy(just like this topic) to share his information. He has given me several suggestions to try to improve my accuracy. Finally I have read and watched videos regarding PP'ing and I'm still learning. Thanks to all.

 

[fleener]

Black Hills Bob

If you post the information here for all to see we will all have a chance to learn. Post away, take ownership if you like. I and most of us are always looking for ways to shoot better. Most ML shooters that I know very willingly share our information with others, even our competitors.

I readily admit that what I know about PP came from Brent D. I dont have to be smart enough to invent the wheel, I am just smart enough to steal it .

Fleener

 

[fleener]

Cannonball

what kind of glue you using? Man I would have glue all over my fingers and paper sticking every where. It would be a real mess.

My offer still stands for you to send that rifle to me for a couple of years and let me play with it. For those that have not seen his rifles they are VERY nice to look at.

Post a couple of pictures please.

Fleener

 

[Carbon 6]

Is there a maximum amount of diameter or threshold that can be achieved by patching ? or a maximum number of wraps?

I'm trying to figure out a workaround for having a special mold or sizing die.

 

[fleener]

I cant answer that as I dont know. Perhaps one of the other guys have played with that and can answer.

Fleener

 

[Brent]

Carbon 6,
There really is no limit per se, but too many wraps and too much thickness will eventually compromise accuracy. As a rough guide I'll offer what I do.
For target bullets, I use paper that will make two wraps and add as much or very slightly less thickness than the lands are tall. In that way, the lands can generally slice through both wraps, reducing the patch to narrow strips that fall away easily at the muzzle. Some people like to be a little thinner yet. We could debate the effects of a thousandth of an inch of thickness for days and come to no objective, definitive answer.

For hunting bullets, I will often use the same paper, but sometimes I prefer a thicker paper. In this case the inner wrap is usually not sliced and is often found intact in front of the muzzle. The thicker paper is a bit more durable when riding in my pockets on the hunt or if there is a need for a follow up shot(s) that can't wait for wiping or maybe even blowing down the barrel. Thicker paper is just a bit to tougher. In this case, the total paper thickness is 0.002-0.003" more than the height of the lands.

Does that make sense?

 

[Brent]

Cannonball1 -

When you say you glue the ends, are you referring to under the base of your bullet? What do you use for glue?

I have never tried your method, but it was well accepted back in the day. I just could never understand how I could keep the paper on the bullet when loading.

I'd love to hear and see some about your methods. What glue, what diameter bullet, thickness and brand of paper, finished bullet size, and size of barrel bore? Tell us lots more.

 

[fleener]

BHB

I bet if you posted your method here that you would not be attacked. We can have a good healthy debate without getting personal I think.

I have shot lots of one hole groups at 1,000 yards, that is until I shoot the second shot!

Anyone that can teach me to shoot 3" groups at 500 yards consistently would be my hero. I would buy you all the beverages of your choice and we would have a good time.

Fleener

 

[fleener]

I would get a stamp with a logo on it for the PP, but I would be afraid that the weight of the ink will throw my bullet off. At least that would be my theory if I had a flyer.

Fleener

 

[Idaholewis]

I would get a stamp with a logo on it for the PP, but I would be afraid that the weight of the ink will throw my bullet off. At least that would be my theory if I had a flyer.

Fleener

That ink would be the cause of them occasional “Dirt Diggers”

 

[Carbon 6]

Does that make sense?

Yes it does, Thank you.

 

[Heelerau]

Fleener, I find the long ogive interesting. I assume this bullet is what you use in your original British long range rifle? I had a heap of hollow based bullets years ago as a kid, so they are long gone. These were to be shot from a whitworth rifle made by Eli Whitney. The hollow bases were like you would find on the pritchett bullet, but quite a thick skirt. The chap on research press has some in his collection. I too have found the paper is critical to good results, but that is with the Enfield paper cartridge. I am yet to try paper patched bullets in my old .451

 

[cannonball1]

I'm now have three fast twist barrels of .450 or nearly so with a .004 rifling. Two of the barrels are from Oregon Barrel Co. of which I am shooting now. The other barrel is from GM a 45-70 with a ML breech installed that I am starting to build. I have the 3" barrel ends which I use to insert the paper and bullet for the single wrap by putting in the front of the bullet first and folding the back paper over the butt end of the bullet. Then I glue the butt paper with elmers wood glue or any other white glue I might have making sure it doesn't get on the bullet(should you get some on the bullet it will come loose, but definitely make sure they are loose). I glue them by using the broke off end of a Qtip and a little dab right in the middle of the base end and under the flaps. It is nearly dry in 15 seconds. Sounds like an ordeal, but it is really easy once you get on to it. I really don't think it will work except with the Chase System. (photo to follow)

 

[fleener]

Fleener, I find the long ogive interesting. I assume this bullet is what you use in your original British long range rifle?

Yes. I use the PP in the original and also one of my replicas likes the same bullet and load.

Fleener

 

[fleener]

Here is the paper that I am using. Got it off Ebay, it is 100% cotton.

Fleener

 

[fleener]

This shows the .72 cal, .50 and .45. Also a picture of the .72 cal that I PP to make it fit in my rifle. I had borrowed the mold from ".52 bore" but his barrel was a little smaller than mine. I ended up not using these bullets.

Fleener