Paper Patch Maxiballs?

[Cosmoline]

I'm a rank newbie with muzzleloaders, so forgive if this is a stupid question. But I'm looking at some big honking 460 grain .50 maxiballs from the Hornady great plains line. They're lubed up, but wouldn't they shoot better with a paper patch, as one would do if shooting from a period cartridge rifle? I'm assuming nobody uses cloth with them.

 

[Leon/Iowa]

Maxiballs require no patch. Paper patch, would be for a rifle and bullet designed for them. Hope this helps. Leon

 

[Cosmoline]

I get that, but I'm wondering why. With a blackpowder cartridge rifle I know many folks who patch the bullets, but for some reason this isn't done with essentially the same rifle with the same powder charge that's a muzzleloader. I'm just wondering if anyone has tried it to increase accuracy.

 

[rabjr]

Actually it is done, just not with the bullets you mentioned that I'm aware of. You need the right bore and sized bullet diameter in order to have room for the patch. I've used the big White buck buster bullets paper patched before and a couple of Precision bullets paper patched in the past. But I never seen or heard anyone patching maxi-balls or buffalo bullets.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Instead of paper patching a bullet NOT designed to be paper patched, just use a OP wad to protect the base of the bullet, and seal off the gases behind it. Considering the thickness of paper- not less than .001" and mostly about .003", the thickness of notebook paper--- the bullet has to be sized at least .006" smaller than land( bore) diameter. The Hornady bullet you have is designed to be used without paper patching. It has large grease grooves, and has a forward " driving " band that actually is scored by the rifling of your gun when you start the bullet down the barrel.

What you have to be concerned about is the heavy recoil of such bullets. Keep your loads reasonable, and that generally means 70 grains of FFg and less. FFFg is going to punish you more, there is no getting around that.

That is why we recommend shooting Round Balls, rather than bullets. You will be able to shoot more, and get better at shooting that rifle if you don't have to worry about recoil, expensive bullets, and going through lots of powder. Leave the bullets for hunting, when you need it. You don't need a 460 grain bullet to kill deer. Elk, maybe, but not deer. Large wild boar, and Bear, yeah, but not deer.

 

[nw_hunter]

I have some 420 gr. 50 cal. Shocker bullets, and I've cloth patched them and fired them in my 54 hawken with pretty good results at 50 yrds.Never tried paper! Sounds like a good excuse for another trip to the woods :thumbsup:

 

[Cosmoline]

FYI here's an article on the practice:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_11_52/ai_n16741371

Years ago I tried it with .45-70 slugs but never could get the hang of it. It's something of a fine art.

Leave the bullets for hunting, when you need it. You don't need a 460 grain bullet to kill deer. Elk, maybe, but not deer. Large wild boar, and Bear, yeah, but not deer.

I'm definately trying PBR's, but this is a fast twist double rifle and I live in AK so it's not purely academic. I have a mind to work out a small game load with one barrel and leave the other loaded with the biggest baddest maxiball I can find "just in case." Our brownies have a well known habit of running TOWARDS gunfire because they associate it with gut piles.

 

[rabjr]

This is what I've done in the past.
http://www.nimrodsplace.com/paperpatching.html

 

[Idaho Ron]

FYI here's an article on the practice:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_11_52/ai_n16741371

Years ago I tried it with .45-70 slugs but never could get the hang of it. It's something of a fine art.

Leave the bullets for hunting, when you need it. You don't need a 460 grain bullet to kill deer. Elk, maybe, but not deer. Large wild boar, and Bear, yeah, but not deer.

I'm definately trying PBR's, but this is a fast twist double rifle and I live in AK so it's not purely academic. I have a mind to work out a small game load with one barrel and leave the other loaded with the biggest baddest maxiball I can find "just in case." Our brownies have a well known habit of running TOWARDS gunfire because they associate it with gut piles.

If you look in this site I have posted quite a bit about Paper patching. I am not expert but I am getting under 1" groups on a very regular basis.
First off, your Hornady 460's are no longer made. Hornady quit making them and the 410 gr 50 cal. So since they don't make them I would not bother working up a load.
Next, Paul hit it on the head. The Hornady is made so it is tapered and over sized. If you were to wrap them you would NOT get them down without sizing them. SO if you are going to wrap and size why not make your own bullets. I am making a 50 cal bullet from a Lee, C501-440-RF. This mould is made for a 500 S&W. They are 456 gr and measure .501 if you take two wraps of 25% cotton paper you get a bullet that is in the neighborhood of .506 to .508 depending on the paper. You might not get these down like this so I size them to .501 then they go down snug but not hard. I shoot them out of my Green Mountain 1-28 twist. I am getting sub 2" groups easy at 100 yards. Here is a group and what the bullets look like. Ron

 

[paulvallandigham]

Ron: Thanks for the target and information on the cast bullet. My brother sent me some Paper Patched .45-70 bullets and they were sized down to .450 before they were patched. They do shoot well but I am having trouble getting the paper to separate from the bullets when they leave the barrel. Most do, but once in awhile, I get a flyer where you can clearly see that the paper patch has remained attached.

That 459 grain bullet you found for the .500 S&W should be just the ticket for his fast twist rifle. And it should take any Alaskan game with the load you list, too. Using the 80 grain setting on a volume measrure, the volume will be 80 grains of Pyrodex RS, while the actual weight will be 64 grains. That should be a good load for even Alaskan Brown bears.

 

[longcruise]

But I'm looking at some big honking 460 grain .50 maxiballs from the Hornady great plains line.

FWIW (and it ain't that much :haha: ) Only the TC "Maxiball" is correctly called a maxiball. The Hornady's are just Hornady conicals. Lyman makes molds that will throw out a true Maxiball but I'm not sure if they call it that. They have some kind of licensing agreement with TC and that probably stems from the fact that the first TC proproietopry molds were made for TC by Lyman.

Anyhoo, as regards paper patching, I've done very little of it, but gather from those with a lot of experience a properly loaded PP bullet should slide easily down the bore and that of course can,t happen with a bore size bullet that is then subsequently wrapped with .008 to .010 of paper.

I've shot true Maxiballs from my .50 tc with a very thing cloth patch in years past and they worked ok. Only reason I did it was to keep the bullet from sliding around in the barrel while being carried. In the end, I just went to bigger calibers and round balls.

One thing to think about with your double gun is the possiblility that the recoil of firing the first barrel will move the bullet in the other barrel off the powder charge. :shocked2:

 

[Cosmoline]

Very interesting info. Now some clever person might combine those paper patches with a container for the powder, and attach the two so that they could be torn apart for quick loading. LOL

BTW, what makes the TC the true maxiball? Is it a trademark issue? Or is there some actual difference between the maxiballs and big conicals?

One thing to think about with your double gun is the possiblility that the recoil of firing the first barrel will move the bullet in the other barrel off the powder charge

That's been on my mind and I'll be priming one barrel at a time until I can sort it out for certain. The previous owner said he'd never noticed a problem. I figure I'll just make sure they're seated well.

 

[Darkgael]

a properly loaded PP bullet should slide easily down the bore

I have heard that PP bullets should be finger-pressed into their cartridge cases but not that they should slide down the barrel. For my .45-70, I swage bullets to .452 on a Corbin press and then patch them to .458. Then they slip into the case which, for target work, I leave unsized.
You have me thinking...I have never tried to slide one down the bore to check it's fit. Maybe it slides easily as you have been told. I'll have to check.
As far as MLs are concerned, I am intrigued with the idea. I have a mould that throws a .480 bullet. I will probably try to patch a few up to .500 just to see how they work.
Pete

 

[playfarmers]

I have paper patched the Lee Mini for a .50 Lyman Deerstalker and got very good accuracy, 3 touching at 50 yards. They fit snug so wiping was needed between shots. The recoil was more than my arthritic shoulder wanted, so I stopped using them.

 

[ssettle]

It would take care of the mess you have with grease. Grease was used to keep from leading the bore and keeping fouling soft.Don't know how paper patching would work in a muzzleloader. But hey what ever floats your boat :thumbsup: Ssettle

 

[Idaho Ron]

Ron: Thanks for the target and information on the cast bullet. My brother sent me some Paper Patched .45-70 bullets and they were sized down to .450 before they were patched. They do shoot well but I am having trouble getting the paper to separate from the bullets when they leave the barrel. Most do, but once in awhile, I get a flyer where you can clearly see that the paper patch has remained attached.

That 459 grain bullet you found for the .500 S&W should be just the ticket for his fast twist rifle. And it should take any Alaskan game with the load you list, too. Using the 80 grain setting on a volume measrure, the volume will be 80 grains of Pyrodex RS, while the actual weight will be 64 grains. That should be a good load for even Alaskan Brown bears.

If your paper is staying attached it can only be a couple of reasons. You are applying sticky lube before you wrap or the percentage of cotton is too high. Maybe both!
When I do mine in the 45 cal Renegade, I size the bullet to .451 then I wrap the 25% cotton paper to the bullet. Then I lube the paper patched bullet with Hornady great plains lube and size to .454 and then to .451 and they are ready to shoot.
I have posted this picture before but this is target where I shot a 3 shot group with paper and without. The paper patched bullets were lubed with Hornady lube at the time of sizing. The "naked" bullets were lubed with a BPCR lube and were sized to fit the bore. I used a felt wad between the powder and bullet. I used the same sight setting. As you can see the PP bullets were more accurate but they must have been a little faster because they hit almost 4" higer.
With both of the TC Renegade rifles I am PPing for I am shooting at least 5 shots before I clean. Sometimes I am even shooting as many as 6 to 10 times between cleaning. The combonation I have found between paper,lead hardness, powder, and lube allows me to shoot enough times, and maintain accuracy, that I know that if I needed a follow up shot I know where they will go. These groups were all shot with muzzleloaders. Ron

 

[ResearchPress]

Don't know how paper patching would work in a muzzleloader.

It works just fine and as it did back in the 19th century. Military cartridges for the Enfield muzzle loader for instance used a paper patched bullet. The British match rifle of the period 1860-1880 used paper patched bullets, as did some of the American bench rest rifles with their false muzzles cut for the cross-patch.

Grease grooved bullets have additional drag when compared to a similar smooth sided bullet as normally used with paper patching.

I use 530 - 560 grain paper patched bullets in my .45 cal muzzle loading long range match rifles and shoot to distances of 1200 yards.

David

 

[ResearchPress]

I have heard that PP bullets should be finger-pressed into their cartridge cases but not that they should slide down the barrel.

We're talking two different games here. There's two schools of though with the breech loader - patch the bullet to bore size or depth of rifling. Results may also depend on how the throat of the barrel is cut. There's several BPCR forums where this can be discussed.

However for the muzzle loader patching to rifling depth and forcing the bullet down risks pushing the bullet through the paper patch. It is normal to patch the bullet so it is just under bore size in diameter, and is a smooth fit and loads with little resistance.

David

 

[Dphar]

I get that, but I'm wondering why. With a blackpowder cartridge rifle I know many folks who patch the bullets, but for some reason this isn't done with essentially the same rifle with the same powder charge that's a muzzleloader. I'm just wondering if anyone has tried it to increase accuracy.

Save yourself some grief and just shoot them as is.
MLs are not BP cartridge rifles and PP bullets will not consistently shoot as well as GG bullets in BPCRs.

Historically MLs only shot PP if they used a false muzzle and were NOT patched as BPCR bullets were. They generally used a 2 or 3 strip cross paper patch. These rifles often shot bullets swaged from 2 pieces with hard noses and soft bases. These were dedicated target rifles and seldom weighed less than 14 pounds and often 40 or more.

Some general purpose rifles used a guide starter or false muzzle to load cloth patched bullets, these were "picket" or "sugar loaf" bullets.
Naked bullets, the Minie and such, were only used by the military. Mostly because loose fitting bullets tend to move off the powder. They worked for a specific purpose, musket fire, but were unsuitable for other purposes.
I would also point out that heavy bullets don't work as well as round balls or light conicals on most game. Several reasons.
First the heavy conical cannot produce the flat trajectory over normal hunting ranges that the lighter bullets and round balls can and thus they make it harder to place shots.
This "phenomenon" was pretty well hashed out by the 1850s but modern "knowledge" seems to ignore this in the rush to sell "new and improved" products to people with limited background in the sport.

I suggest you read Ned Roberts' "The Muzzle Loading Caplock Rifle". It will explain the bullets generally used in ML rifles and what they were used for. Roberts' used both RBs and flat point "picket" bullets in his youth.
Anuone shooting muzzle loaders, traditional ones anyway, should read it.
If you could get one "The Sporting Rifle and its projectiles" by James Forstyhe points out the problems with ML conicals especially for hunting and especially for heavy game. The the reprints are about 300 bucks and up according to Amazon.
However. I just found it on digital form on the WWW at http://books.google.com/books?hl=e...NuDs_&sig=-ULQvYkjL9XVKrHlOXW32pnU0bw#PPA2,M1


Dan

 

[Idaho Ron]

Save yourself some grief and just shoot them as is.
MLs are not BP cartridge rifles and PP bullets will not consistently shoot as well as GG bullets in BPCRs.

Historically MLs only shot PP if they used a false muzzle and were NOT patched as BPCR bullets were. They generally used a 2 or 3 strip cross paper patch. These rifles often shot bullets swaged from 2 pieces with hard noses and soft bases. These were dedicated target rifles and seldom weighed less than 14 pounds and often 40 or more.

Some general purpose rifles used a guide starter or false muzzle to load cloth patched bullets, these were "picket" or "sugar loaf" bullets.
Naked bullets, the Minie and such, were only used by the military. Mostly because loose fitting bullets tend to move off the powder. They worked for a specific purpose, musket fire, but were unsuitable for other purposes.
I would also point out that heavy bullets don't work as well as round balls or light conicals on most game. Several reasons.
First the heavy conical cannot produce the flat trajectory over normal hunting ranges that the lighter bullets and round balls can and thus they make it harder to place shots.
This "phenomenon" was pretty well hashed out by the 1850s but modern "knowledge" seems to ignore this in the rush to sell "new and improved" products to people with limited background in the sport.

I suggest you read Ned Roberts' "The Muzzle Loading Caplock Rifle". It will explain the bullets generally used in ML rifles and what they were used for. Roberts' used both RBs and flat point "picket" bullets in his youth.
Anuone shooting muzzle loaders, traditional ones anyway, should read it.
If you could get one "The Sporting Rifle and its projectiles" by James Forstyhe points out the problems with ML conicals especially for hunting and especially for heavy game. The the reprints are about 300 bucks and up according to Amazon.
However.
Dan

:bull: :bull: :bull: :bull: :bull: :bull: :bull: :bull: :bull: :bull: :bull: :bull:
I have given MANY reasons that YES paper patching the ML DOES work. In fact if you have the right twist it works fantastic! Others on this list also PP with better results than mine.

First the heavy conical cannot produce the flat trajectory over normal hunting ranges that the lighter bullets and round balls can and thus they make it harder to place shots.
Dan

:bull: :bull: :bull:
You simply don't know what you are talking about. Sorry, that is not meant as an insult, you need to quit spreading untruth. If you know nothing on a subject it is ok not to post on it.
Ron