This, along with picking the vent, will eliminate 90% of the issues with flash in the pan/ failure to fire.
Ignition Problems – No I idea what I am doing!!! Please help!
- Thread starter Bumpy Rhodes
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Here a post from an older thread from Twisted_1in66 detailing the correct way to set up flint. This information helped me when setting up my Traditions flintlock.
You need to move the flint back a bit, especially if it is resting against the frizzen at half cock.
It appears that you are using a rather thick piece of leather to hold your flint that is causing that problem. You should be able to actually fix this pretty simply. Just take the flint and leather out of the cock, bend the leather in half and then cut a "V" in the middle of the bend. That will actually put a diamond-shaped hole in the middle of the leather, which will allow you to move the flint farther back because there will no longer be a piece of leather butting up against the screw that holds the flint in place. After you have cut the hole in the leather and moved the flint back farther it should not be touching the frizzen when it's at half-cock. If that doesn't fix it, then you need a shorter flint. But your leather is pretty darn thick and that should take care of it.
After you have modified your flint leather, then you want to position your flint. The angle it hits the frizzen now will smash the point. You'll be lucky to get 2 shots out of it before it no longer sparks. The tip of the flint needs to scrape along the face of the frizzen to generate the sparks and continue to do so repeatedly. It's the Goldilocks Effect at its best. Not too much angle, not too little angle, just right!
Not enough angle will cause the tip of the flint to smash head on into the frizzen and smash the tip. That's how yours is set now. Too little angle will actually impact the top of the flint instead of the point of it, and that will break a piece off the bottom of the flint, often leaving a concave edge on the flint instead of a straight one. That's too much angle.
The right amount of angle will slice along the frizzen as it pushes it, showering lots of sparks down into the pan. And it will do it over and over and over again. That angle actually self sharpens the flint and keeps generating a good amount of sparks, and you may get as many as 100-shots or more out of a single flint. That's known as "just right". That "just right" angle is usually anywhere between 55° and 60°.
The illustration below should help with that. Be aware that of course your frizzen is curved as are all frizzens. To get that angle you need to draw an imaginary line from the contact point on the frizzen straight up - 90°. Too little angle, say 45° to 50° will be crushing the tip. If you go beyond 60° to perhaps 70° you'll start breaking pieces off the underside of your flint or possibly break the tip of it off entirely. Usually 55° to 60° does the trick very nicely, so give that a try. Do whatever you need to get that angle. Turn bevel up or down as needed to get it to hit the frizzen at the correct angle. Cut a hole in the back of the flint leather if it's too long; or put a twig or toothpick behind the back of the flint if it's too short. When you get the correct angle on it for your rifle, you will get good, consistent sparking and long flint life.
Hope that helps,
Dan
Twisted_1in66
You need to move the flint back a bit, especially if it is resting against the frizzen at half cock.
It appears that you are using a rather thick piece of leather to hold your flint that is causing that problem. You should be able to actually fix this pretty simply. Just take the flint and leather out of the cock, bend the leather in half and then cut a "V" in the middle of the bend. That will actually put a diamond-shaped hole in the middle of the leather, which will allow you to move the flint farther back because there will no longer be a piece of leather butting up against the screw that holds the flint in place. After you have cut the hole in the leather and moved the flint back farther it should not be touching the frizzen when it's at half-cock. If that doesn't fix it, then you need a shorter flint. But your leather is pretty darn thick and that should take care of it.
After you have modified your flint leather, then you want to position your flint. The angle it hits the frizzen now will smash the point. You'll be lucky to get 2 shots out of it before it no longer sparks. The tip of the flint needs to scrape along the face of the frizzen to generate the sparks and continue to do so repeatedly. It's the Goldilocks Effect at its best. Not too much angle, not too little angle, just right!
Not enough angle will cause the tip of the flint to smash head on into the frizzen and smash the tip. That's how yours is set now. Too little angle will actually impact the top of the flint instead of the point of it, and that will break a piece off the bottom of the flint, often leaving a concave edge on the flint instead of a straight one. That's too much angle.
The right amount of angle will slice along the frizzen as it pushes it, showering lots of sparks down into the pan. And it will do it over and over and over again. That angle actually self sharpens the flint and keeps generating a good amount of sparks, and you may get as many as 100-shots or more out of a single flint. That's known as "just right". That "just right" angle is usually anywhere between 55° and 60°.
The illustration below should help with that. Be aware that of course your frizzen is curved as are all frizzens. To get that angle you need to draw an imaginary line from the contact point on the frizzen straight up - 90°. Too little angle, say 45° to 50° will be crushing the tip. If you go beyond 60° to perhaps 70° you'll start breaking pieces off the underside of your flint or possibly break the tip of it off entirely. Usually 55° to 60° does the trick very nicely, so give that a try. Do whatever you need to get that angle. Turn bevel up or down as needed to get it to hit the frizzen at the correct angle. Cut a hole in the back of the flint leather if it's too long; or put a twig or toothpick behind the back of the flint if it's too short. When you get the correct angle on it for your rifle, you will get good, consistent sparking and long flint life.
Hope that helps,
Dan
Twisted_1in66
I did the drill it
I did the drill bit pick for a while and then it broke off in the touch hole
Let's go to @Loyalist Dave for some pictures to provide some insight to what @kyron4 explained above.
First of course is getting that flint sharp so it's capable of sending a shower of sparks to that pan of real black powder. Some excellent info on pressure flaking above.
Then the flint needs to be properly secure in the jaws of the cock. See Loyalist Dave's description of preparing the flint leather and securing it in the jaws to scrape rather than bash
I think that @Bumpy Rhodes is well aware of the need to scrape rather than bash.
Now he needs to be sure that the main powder charge is waiting for the heat from the pan to ignite the charge of real black powder. Make sure that your breech is dry. Use 91% rubbing alcohol and compressed air to dry out the breech area and dissolve away left over grease and oils. A pick through the touch hole should open the flash channel from the pan to the powder chamber. That touch hole should be 1/16" in diameter. One of the little flossing brushes works well as a pick and fouling remover.
Bumpy, remember that flint lock shooting is an art and one must become an artist. The percussion locks take a lot of the art out of traditional muzzleloading. It's not time to give up on flintlocks yet.
Two things seem to be working together, maybe three things, to keep your rifle from firing.
First of course is getting that flint sharp so it's capable of sending a shower of sparks to that pan of real black powder. Some excellent info on pressure flaking above.
Then the flint needs to be properly secure in the jaws of the cock. See Loyalist Dave's description of preparing the flint leather and securing it in the jaws to scrape rather than bash
I think that @Bumpy Rhodes is well aware of the need to scrape rather than bash.
Now he needs to be sure that the main powder charge is waiting for the heat from the pan to ignite the charge of real black powder. Make sure that your breech is dry. Use 91% rubbing alcohol and compressed air to dry out the breech area and dissolve away left over grease and oils. A pick through the touch hole should open the flash channel from the pan to the powder chamber. That touch hole should be 1/16" in diameter. One of the little flossing brushes works well as a pick and fouling remover.
Bumpy, remember that flint lock shooting is an art and one must become an artist. The percussion locks take a lot of the art out of traditional muzzleloading. It's not time to give up on flintlocks yet.
lol. Are you kidding? I always wipe the frizzen with my thumb. Always. Top and bottom of the flint too. Obvs going away from the edge.
If one is really worried, a shop rag can be used — especially when the pan gets all goopy.
Do you really think they carried alcohol to clean their frizzen back then? Are you the same guy who flipped when I said use your thumb, years ago? This is why new people get overwhelmed with flintlocks.
To me, I’d look at getting the right size flint. Use thin leather. Pick the vent. Prime with 4f like they say, wipe the frozen with your thumb (wipe it on your jeans). Wipe the flint (going away from the edge) with your thumb. Your evil skin oil will not hurt it or cause it not to go off.
When you prime do not fill the pan. Just a bit, say the size if a pencil eraser. On the far side of the pan — not against the touch hole. You want the fire to flash into the touch hole, not burn like a fuse.
When you prime do not fill the pan. Just a bit, say the size if a pencil eraser. On the far side of the pan — not against the touch hole. You want the fire to flash into the touch hole, not burn like a fuse.
Thanks, you hit it dead center, I have been using a large paper clip that has serrations to make it non-slip. The serrations make it work like a mini file but soft. I like the drill because it takes all the carbon out, but I'll only use it now when I remove the touchhole screw.
UPDATE:
Thanks guys for all the info, it'll take me a while to sift through it and watch the vids, but I have new info based in early comments.
First: I covered the frizzen with black marker, I was only getting hits, not scrapes. I installed the original flint that came with the (used) rifle and it did scrape. If you recall, this flint was too far forward to allow the frizzen to cap the pan at half cock. At half cock, the frizzen would hit the flint and not close, it made me uncomfortable fearing a spark from closing the flint would fire the rifle. The tip of that original flint has now broken down, I will attempt to nap it.
The new flints spaced .06" from the frizzen did not scrape. I moved it waaay forward put a #6 screw behind it as a spacer ant it scrapes and seems to spark well, but at half cock the flint hits the frizzen and does not close on the pan. (Video and photo. Don't ask me why the wife holding the rifle said "OH!"
)
Thanks guys for all the info, it'll take me a while to sift through it and watch the vids, but I have new info based in early comments.
First: I covered the frizzen with black marker, I was only getting hits, not scrapes. I installed the original flint that came with the (used) rifle and it did scrape. If you recall, this flint was too far forward to allow the frizzen to cap the pan at half cock. At half cock, the frizzen would hit the flint and not close, it made me uncomfortable fearing a spark from closing the flint would fire the rifle. The tip of that original flint has now broken down, I will attempt to nap it.
The new flints spaced .06" from the frizzen did not scrape. I moved it waaay forward put a #6 screw behind it as a spacer ant it scrapes and seems to spark well, but at half cock the flint hits the frizzen and does not close on the pan. (Video and photo. Don't ask me why the wife holding the rifle said "OH!"
)
So, it appears I can get it to scrape well and spark, but it leaves me with the choice of pan open at half cock, or pan covered and full cock. Not sure how to fix that. As I mentioned, if I move the flint back, it doesn't scrape.
Here is the touchhole, does this look ok? It is 1/16 dia and backbored to 3/32, I ran a centerdrill in to countersink it a bit.
Before firing I (of course) run a couple dry patches through to remove oil. I am wondering now, maybe when I oiled after cleaning that I pushed some oil into the touchhole!!! I will change my cleaning procedure! I remove the lock when I clean then oil after reinstalling it. Next time I'll oil, wipe, then install the touchhole and lock.
So far, I am getting a really good feeling about this. You guys have identified many likely causes, and helped me identify other possible causes. Unfortunately it will be colder than a witches hat for the next week or so, so I won't be able to test anytime soon.
Biggest concern it the position of the flint to get a good scrape/spark vs. covering the pan at half cock. Thoughts are always appreciated!
BTW: I'll order some longer flints!
Thanks!!!
Biggest concern it the position of the flint to get a good scrape/spark vs. covering the pan at half cock. Thoughts are always appreciated!
BTW: I'll order some longer flints!
Thanks!!!
No, just the screw thing. I really think the oil in the touchhole back bore may have lead to early crudding. Thanks.
This was very helpful, thanks!!! I think I provided details and photos that cover your thoughts and your marker idea was spot on. Maybe it is the frizzen spring. Do you think it needs to be stronger?
I could not tell you about the frizzen spring without having it to examine. First, turn the flint over from what you have in the above picture. It should hit as high as possible and give a longer stroke. You can look at it both ways and determine which hits the frizzen higher. Next, close your frizzen with the cock on half cock. Then install your flint so that it is about 1/16" (no more) from the frizzen face. You are installing the flint first and trying to make the frizzen work and that won't happen. Your touch hole is a little low, but it should still work fine. Don't drill that hole any bigger. 1/16" hole diameter max. Anything larger and you will probably push powder out when loading and your accuracy will suffer. I disagree with the information about how much priming powder and placing it away from the touch hole. Here is a link (https://www.blackpowdermag.com/about/) that I recommend you read each article by the author. He is well known and his test are spot on. No guess work on his part. 4F or NullB will give you better results, but you can use what you have.
Now for the bottom line. I am not downing your rifle choice, but the geometry and relationship of the cock, the frizzen (including the face design), striking angle leave a little to be desired. I would not recommend you try to modify any portion of the lock as you will not get the desired results. Get the proper length flints and keep that touch hole clean and open. Your flints should be the width of the frizzen face and long enough to seat to the rear and leave a small gap at the frizzen. Flint sizes are sold as width first x length. Example 3/4x7/8. 3/4 is the width. Remove that spacer screw and just tighten that top jaw down, real tight. Lastly, I watched your video and I am betting the frizzen face is not heat treated properly. It seems to be opening properly and not bouncing back which is a good thing. I do note that it appears that your flint is only hitting on one side (the inside) based on the wear marks I can see. Make sure the flint is square to the frizzen face.
Now for the bottom line. I am not downing your rifle choice, but the geometry and relationship of the cock, the frizzen (including the face design), striking angle leave a little to be desired. I would not recommend you try to modify any portion of the lock as you will not get the desired results. Get the proper length flints and keep that touch hole clean and open. Your flints should be the width of the frizzen face and long enough to seat to the rear and leave a small gap at the frizzen. Flint sizes are sold as width first x length. Example 3/4x7/8. 3/4 is the width. Remove that spacer screw and just tighten that top jaw down, real tight. Lastly, I watched your video and I am betting the frizzen face is not heat treated properly. It seems to be opening properly and not bouncing back which is a good thing. I do note that it appears that your flint is only hitting on one side (the inside) based on the wear marks I can see. Make sure the flint is square to the frizzen face.
bldtrailer
Pilgrim
as I said WHEN YOU TAKEOUT YOUR RIFLE wipe the inside of the barrel lock and rock with alcohol to remove oil from storage........prick the touch hole every time you load ........ wipe the frizzen and pan as needed ......... and wiping a sharp flint with a finger as a new shooter might NOT be a good ideal ... not everyone has the same experience
this was to help a new shooter and yes old timers wipe with other things than their fingers
clean with warm soapy h2o, dry ,oil ,store when ready to shoot
you wipe with alcohol and a dry patch you shouldn't need to remove the vent liner (most are not removable)
this was to help a new shooter and yes old timers wipe with other things than their fingers
clean with warm soapy h2o, dry ,oil ,store when ready to shoot
you wipe with alcohol and a dry patch you shouldn't need to remove the vent liner (most are not removable)
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Get yourself a 30 caliber nylon bristled cleaning brush just for your breach. They help.
Sorry, I don't understand. Why a .30 in a .50?
Thanks!
I did the 1/16" gap and it did not scrape, only initial impact and poor spark. Only when I put the flint waaay forward did I get a scrape and (what I think might be a) good spark as in my posted vid. Does the spark in the vid look ok???
What are the indicators of a bad frizzen spring?
And if the flint edge is not perfect (are they ever?), only the 2 highest points will contact, theoretically. Again, maybe I am missing something? Here is a pic of the flint showing the marker ink. You can see the two black spots where it rubbed.
bldtrailer
Pilgrim
