Paper Patching

[paul f]

Does anyone have a good reference(s) for the history and 'how to' of paper patching muzzle loading bullets? It seems that such a technique produced fine results for longer range conical shooting prior to its use in early cartridge guns. This would be another interesting aspect of the hobby to try and a good winter project.
Thanks.

 

[Hawkeye]

Yes, you could try to find a copy of Ned Roberts book, The Muzzleloading Caplock Rifle. The last I knew it is out of print but there may be copies around, try ebay or Amazon's rare and out of print book locator. Good luck.

Hawkeye

 

[Zonie]

A book called "THE PAPER JACKET" by Paul Matthews goes into great detail about the subject.
Much of the book is directed to cartridge guns but the principle is the same with muzzle loaders.

My experiance with it comes from shooting my muzzle loading Schuetzen so I'll tell you a little about it.

First, the gun has to have a fast twist barrel capable of stabilizing long bullets. In the case of the Schuetzen it is a .40 caliber with a 1:18 twist. The rifleing is shallow (about .003 deep) like a modern rifle.

The bullet is undersize (.390 diameter) and has no grease grooves. Just a smooth cylinder and has a slight hollow in the rear with a nice ogive nose which leaves about a .010 shoulder just ahead of the cylindrical body. The bullets I buy are produced by Montana Forge and are made specifically for paper patching and the last time I bought some they cost about 27 cents each.

Places like Dixie sells special paper for paper patching but it is IMO too thick. The paper I use is from one of my wifes dress patterns. It is .002 thick and has the most important quality, that being if it is damp, it shrinks when it drys.

To make the bullets I first had to determine the proper bullet diameter. This I did by taking the bore size .4000 minus .008 (4 paper thicknesses) minus .002 (loading clearance) which equaled .3900.

Paper patched bullets have two layers of paper wrapped around them and the end seam is at an angle of about 30 degrees to the axis of the bullet.

To cut the paper I lay the bullet on the paper with the start of the nose even with the edge of the paper and then mark the paper about 1/4 inch behind the rear of the bullet. In my case it is about 1 1/8 long for the 330 grain bullet (which I like shooting best) or 1 5/16 for the 400 grain bullet. This is the width I want to cut the paper to.

To determine the length of the paper strip I first calculate the circumfrence of the bullet X 2 this being the diameter x 6.284 and then subtract .030 for the end gap. In my case it is (.390 X 6.284) - .030=2.420 . After laying out the 2.420 along the edge of the paper I then set a home made fence for my paper cutter at 60 degrees from the blade and start cutting off parallelograms cut to the length marks.

Using a board with a small V groove cut into the top I lay the paper strip perpendicular to and slightly overlapping the V groove and dampen it with a wet sponge. Placing the bullet in the groove with its nose lined up with the paper edge I pull the short tail of the paper up over the bullet. Then rolling the bullet up out of the groove I roll it along until the paper is wrapped around it twice with about a .030 end gap left.
Twisting the paper which is hanging over the back of the bullet between my fingers it ends up with a little tail which is then tucked into the hollow of the bullet base. I then set it aside to dry.

When dry the paper shrinks tighter than a gnats a$$ over a rainbarrel and can't hardly be pried off.

I store the finished bullets in the styrofoam box they came in.

When fired the obturation of the bullet swells it and causes it and the paper to seat into the rifles grooves. I have never seen any sign of leading in the bore and even the 400 grain bullet is stabilized so it cuts a perfect circle thru the paper with each shot.

To shoot these bullets I first snap 3 precussion caps to clear the chamber. Then I load 70 Grains of FFg down the barrel. Selecting a bullet I then hand apply a coat of SPG or home made lube which is about half Vasoline and half Bees Wax to the outside and start it into the barrel. It is a REAL snug fit but I haven't had a problem ramming it home.
Going to the line, I then Cap the gun, aim and fire. Shooting at 100 yards with my elbow on the bench it easily holds 2 inch groups (with iron diopter sights) which is very good for my old eyes.
I wipe the bore between shots.

This combination is truly a .40-70-330 or a .40-70-400 without the case to fool with.
It is rather amusing to see other shooters facial
expression when they ask "is that the cartridge?" only to be told "no, that is just the bullet. There's 70 grains of powder that goes under it".

The Schuetzen match is fired from a standing position at a range of 200 yards if your interested in it. I understand after the match there's lots of Beer Drinking und UmPaw music and great festivities. I haven't tried it.

I hope this answers some of your questions.

 

[Zonie]

double post

 

well written 'zonie. My other Sharps is a 40-70 and I shoot a 410 gr. Lyman bullet out of it under 61 grs. of GOEX ctdg. It's a certain killer on anything I've used it on. It's also one heck of a good long range cartridge with that long for caliber bullet.

I'll second both books mentioned. Both are a good read and both inhabit my library. Shiloh Sharps and C. Sharps also have books on paper patching the cartridge bullet along with molds and paper.

Vic

 

[BrownBear]

I've got a 50-140 Sharps, and have been thinking about paper patched bullets for a long time. Anyone have experience with it or any 50 cal, and can recomend bullets, paper and sources? The load would be used almost exclusively for hunting game larger than deer though a deer or two might stumble into my sights just to see what happens. Has anyone recovered bullets from moose or elk, or are they still flying?

 

Brownbear, if I were going to paper patch either of my Sharps I'd get in touch with Shiloh and/or C. Sharps. For my 2 cents worth they have more and better info than the other retail outlets and several different paper patch molds for the various calibers.

There's a fella in Sand Point, Idaho....ummm...Buffalo Arms is his company. I can't recall his name but he is VERY knowledgeable about all the old Sharps, Ballard ( he shoots a Ballard, a 45-2.6....I can remember that but not his name!!!) and Rolling blocks. DAVE GULLO!!!!! There...I remembered it. Anyway, he helped me immensely with the working up of loads for my 43 Mauser double rifle. I'd give Dave a call.

I've never worked with any of the 50's except for my 500 BPE double. It has Henry rifling and to make it work good with black I really should paper patch the bullets.....but I just can't make myself do it.....yet. Maybe when our house is finished and I have my loading stuff set up again I will. I have some Hawk bullets for it and they shoot exceedingly well with almost any powder you put under them.

The biggest problem I've encountered with shooting the larger capacity black powder cartridges is keeping the fouling soft, and I've tried everything. Grease cookies, different lubes, homemade concoctions and some other things I can't remember....I just haven't stumbled on the right combination yet. My best results with my 45-2.6 so far is a mildly duplexed load. I think 5 grs. of SR 4759 under a forgotten amount of GOEX Ctg., a Walters vegetable fibre wad and Lymans 457125 bullet. It at least gives me 2-2 1/2 in. groups at 100 yds. I've never fired it farther than 100 yds. so maybe that's a better load than I think it is.

The 500 BPE case is about the same capacity as the 50-140, what's your recipe for good BP loads in it? I ask that and I really would like to know....but I'm convinced it's a function of the Henry rifling in my Double. Others have had the same dilemma until paper patching the bullets.

I can't tell you a thing about penetration on a moose or elk with either of my Sharps but I can tell you that my 45-2.4 and my 40-2.5 Sharps will both shoot lengthways, brisket thru ham, on fairly good sized whitetails....and a very large mulie buck. I've yet to recover a bullet from anything I've killed with them, and that includes some 250+ hogs.....yup...bullets may still be going as far as I know!...hehehe. I've not taken any game with my 45-2.6 and that cartridge is in a Ballard.

Welp...dunno if I helped you any but I do like talking Sharps.....and Ballards....and double rifles.....black powder guns in general!!!!

Vic

 

Brownbear

I useta have a "fifty_one forty" Shiloh Sharps LRE when I lived in Alaska!!

If you bought yore "used" and in the last three years it might be the one I had!!

I sold it to Dan C in Delta Junction and if I rember right_ he traded or sold it to a fella towards yore area!!

ANYWAY!! __ I don"t think ther are too many of"em in Alaska!!

 

[BrownBear]

Hey rollinb,

Mine actually showed up long before then. It was made by the Sharps Rifle Manufacturing Company in Arcadia, California, in the 1970's. There was some kind of fracus, and suddenly they disappeared and not too long afterward Shiloh Sharps came on the scene.

Mine has a lot of sentimental value because I inherited it from a close friend who passed. It's an "officer's" model with an ornate silver forend tip, half-round barrel, beautiful browning, vernier tang sights, and exhibition grade walnut with the sharpest and cleanest 24-line checkering you can imagine. It's so "purdy" I can't bring myself to pack it on hunts.

I've only shot it a little with some of the bullets that came with it (along with 40 cases), but haven't pushed it all the way up the scale. It seems to really want to shoot with those, but I haven't tried it with paper patched bullets yet. The ones I have seem kinda short and "only" weigh around 500 grains (I forget exactly how much). They look like the old express style of bullet, and that long vernier sight keeps nagging me about stretching the range way out there with longer bullets. Can't imagine how much the right one should weigh, because the history of the cartridge is a little "shady" in the first place. The gun is comparatively light, so I'll probably pay the price when I light off long range loads with heavy bullets.

Any idea on weights for paper patched pills?

 

Brown Bear

I gave everthing to Dan c when he got the Shiloh from me include"n dies_ four hundred fity grain bullets_ and seven hundred forty (?) grain bullets!!

I shot the "lighter" bullets usen Accurate "fifty seven forty four" powder_ and the heavy bulletts with FFG Goex!

The heavy bullets weren"t "NO FUN" to shoot (least for me)!!

I was the "forth owner" of thet rifle_ and I imagine it has "changed hands" a couple"a more times since I sold it!! ha! ha! ha!

I only had the rifle for "bout a year_ and didn"t shoot it much!! (I like "muzzleguns" better!!)

 

[roundball]

Paul F.....see if this might be of help

http://members.shaw.ca/bobschewe/

 

[BrownBear]

Hey rollingb,

I had guessed the pp bullets would be somewhere over 700 grains. Thanks for the info. I'll have to weigh the rifle some time, as well as measure the barrel. Because it is half-round (actually about 2/3- only to the front of the forend), it's surpisingly light. With the short bullets I have (450 grains may be about right) and 100 grains of FFg, it wasn't a whole lot different that shooting a 12 gauge the same weight with slugs. It may have to shoot an elk one of these days, in honor of my old friend, and I'd like to do it with a paper patched bullet just because we talked about it so many times.

 

try http://members.shaw.ca/bobschewe/

 

[jrdavis]

check out this site http://members.shaw.ca/bobschewe/ /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

jr....didja steal your signature from Steve Garbe? I just hadda ask!!

Vic

 

[jrdavis]

come to think of ...I think your wright! hope he don't mind.
people need to think that way anyway.

 

http://www.ssbpcrc.co.uk/Resources/Introduction%20to%20BPCR%20Loading.pdf

No paper patching but cartridge info on the big ones.

 

I think Steve IS right.....you mean smokeless isn't just a passing fad?....awww....come on, now.....surely it won't last. Let's talk about it in 400 years when it's had time to catch up with black powder.....maybe they'll get the kinks out of it by then.

Vic

 

...you mean smokeless isn't just a passing fad?....awww....come on, now.....surely it won't last. Let's talk about it in 400 years when it's had time to catch up with black powder..

Do you mean when Charleton Heston is running from the apes with some fine babe in tow saying: "Get your stinking paws off of me you damn dirty apes" ?

Black powder or smokeless, don't mess with the apes !

 

[Zonie]

Do you mean when Charleton Heston is running from the apes with some fine babe in tow saying: "Get your stinking paws off of me you damn dirty apes" ?

Actually what you heard was all dubbed in by the producer. What Charleton REALLY said was: "Get you gun grabbing hands off of me Mrs Brady!"
That is why the NRA wanted him to be their President!