paper shot cup questions

[Bob J]

I haven't had good patterns yet with the paper shot cups in 10 ga. Took a 5/8" dowel, wrapped masking tape strips around it to build it up, used "post it" notes, crimped and folded in, cut off even with shot load. Best patterns are 4 or 5 #5s in head and neck, about what I get without paper shot cups. How loose are cups supposed to fit (mine will hold in end of barrel, imp cyl and mod. chokes), but slide/drop right to bottom when pushed in past choke (not screw-in chokes). Rounball and Stumpkiller, your patterns are far superior and I wonder if I'm missing part of equation. By the way, I've tried using just over powder card, card and cushion fiber wad, card and wonder wad, just two and just three wonder wads... ::

 

[roundball]

I haven't had good patterns yet with the paper shot cups in 10 ga. Took a 5/8" dowel, wrapped masking tape strips around it to build it up, used "post it" notes, crimped and folded in, cut off even with shot load. Best patterns are 4 or 5 #5s in head and neck, about what I get without paper shot cups. How loose are cups supposed to fit (mine will hold in end of barrel, imp cyl and mod. chokes), but slide/drop right to bottom when pushed in past choke (not screw-in chokes). Rounball and Stumpkiller, your patterns are far superior and I wonder if I'm missing part of equation. By the way, I've tried using just over powder card, card and cushion fiber wad, card and wonder wad, just two and just three wonder wads... ::

How much shot are you using?
At what distances are you patterning?

 

[B.Habermehl]

Using a 5/8 dowel for your wrapping mandrel may be your problem. Your bore dia is closer to .750, I would think as 12 ga.is .730-.735. Your shot cup is definately rupturing on firing or loading as there will be almost no support by the barrel walls with the cup that small a dia. Try using a dowel closer to your bore dia. You may need to use a dowel or similar to get the base of your cup to go past your chokes without overly distorting the cup, then pour your shot into the cup and finish loading. :m2c: BJH

 

[Bob J]

Roundball -
Am using 110 grains of Goex 2f or Black Mag3 and 1 1/2 oz. shot. Lesser charges of powder didn't work at all. Range is 25 to 30 yards.

 

[Bob J]

Have wrapped about 6 layers of masking tape around dowel. Fits in choke end of barrels snug, then slides loose the rest of the way down (cup full of shot almost free-falls once past choke end). Can see the imprint of the shot in the tattered remnants of paper which lay like confetti not far out from the muzzle after firing.

 

[roundball]

Roundball -
Am using 110 grains of Goex 2f or Black Mag3 and 1 1/2 oz. shot. Lesser charges of powder didn't work at all. Range is 25 to 30 yards.

That amount of shot sounds like .12ga stuff...I use 1+5/8oz #6's in my cylinderbore .62/.20ga...thought you'd be using a lot more shot in that big 10ga...like 1+7/8's to 2.0ozs?

And paper shot cups may not / probably won't have any or much effect on a shotgun that already has chokes in it...the main point of even bothering with shot cups is because there's no choke at all in a cylinder bore smoothbore, and you're just trying to keep it all together as it exits the muzzle...maybe reduce pellet deformation a tad, etc.

 

[musketman]

the main point of even bothering with shot cups is because there's no choke at all in a cylinder bore smoothbore, and you're just trying to keep it all together as it exits the muzzle...maybe reduce pellet deformation a tad, etc.

You can make a buffered shot paper shot cup, sifting cornmeal between the shot before you sill the cup...

 

[Rat]

I agree with Roundball's last post, but it's possible that if you kept increasing the number of paper wraps, or the thickness of the paper you might reach a point where it holds together a bit longer and produces a tighter pattern.

I don't know how thin the line is between the paper breaking up, and not breaking up and becoming a slug.

A heavy shot charge, as suggested would certainly be worth a try. 2oz is not unusual for a 10 gauge.

Rat

 

[Bob J]

Thanks for the info, guys. Pedersoli's max load is 4 drams 2f powder and 1 1/2 oz shot. Still, you're right, I know that many have loaded 10 ga. with shot loads more like you mentioned. Saw and old British 10 ga. load charts with 4, 4 1/2 and 5 drams of powder (light med and heavy loads.) Surely a modern fluid steel barrel could handle 1 3/4 to 2 oz of shot?

Think I will also experiment some more with different wads and maybe different shot size (maybe mine doesn't like #5s?). Try #4s and #6s. And if all else fails, maybe having barrels jug choked would help.

 

[roundball]

You've already got chokes, so IMO, jug choking would just be a waste of money...the simplest thing to do is use full 10ga shot charges of # 5's or 6's and you'll get more shot in the pattern...that should take care of it

 

My bro is using 95gr.(3 1/2 drams) 2F in his 10 bore (.774")Bess with 1 1/2ounces of shot and is finally getting good patterns. There is no choke. He's using 9 bore wads.
: He is also using a 1 1/8" card on powder, and one 3/8" fibre wad between the card and the shot, then the shot, then a "B" wad.
: Perhaps you aren't using a card over-powder wad - some guns demand this.
: You can tighten the centre concentration by using a hollow fiber wad over the 1st fibre wad. The hollow in the wad will hold enough shot to strengthen the centre density.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Am using 110 grains of Goex 2f or Black Mag3 and 1 1/2 oz. shot. Lesser charges of powder didn't work at all. Range is 25 to 30 yards.

Less powder
More lead
Shoots far
Kills dead

More powder
Less lead
Close in
Wide spread

I believe the above rhyme, from an old Kit Ravenshear catalog(ue), has to do with the balance between moving the shot without blowing the pattern. It is counter-intuitive to adding more powder to reach farther. But first you have to have a load that patterns at least cylinder or it won't help. (Which is 35 to 40% of the pellets staying in a 30" circle at 40 yards). By the sounds of things you're not even at that density, yet.

In my 12 ga I get there with 82 gr FFg (3 drams) a 1/8" over powder card, a 1/2" cushion wad smeared with Bore Butter or rolled in beeswax/Crisco mix (Moose Snot when I use up these), 1-1/4 os shot, and an over shot card with a nick in the edge to let the air escape. No paper cup at all. When I want tighter groups, I scientifically underfill my measure to perhaps 75 grains and drop in another dozen or so pellets.

The shot cups I make lately are wax paper and are a tight fit at the muzzle. I get about 2-1/2 full wraps with the wood pattern I'm using to cut the pattern.

Gets me way up to an improved cylinder pattern, maybe 50% in a 30" circle at 40 yards. You'll never approach the 75 or 80%+ of a turkey tube in a modern gun. I'm wondering if the paper might not be working against you in the already choked tubes. I've never owned a choked m/l so I have no experience with them. It could be kicking the pattern to one side as it blows through the choke & shreads apart.

Here is a desperation method to try if you are willing. Use your dowel (or a large felt-tip marker/Hi-lighter tube) to shape strips of manila folder into 1/2" x 3" strips, bent in the middle to form a "U". When loading set two pre-bent strips at right angles "+" to form a cup and set this in (over the already tamped cushion wad) just deep enough to fill with shot, then tamp down with the over shot card. I think you'll have to add the shot at the muzzle to keep the petals from folding in and getting under the shot. Try a couple of these with maybe 95 gr of powder and 1-7/8 oz shot and see if it helps. This is an experiment, so you may need to alter the dimensions to get a good fit. The petals should be just long enough to hold all the pellets. The object is just to keep the pellets from touching the barrel and not to hold them any real distance in flight.

This is just something I thought up and has never been tested, so use your common sense if something doesn't seem right.

I'm finding grouse get more distance on me before I've got the gun set than they used to. I may try some myself now that deer season is over. This is my prime m/l time of the year. And it was 0

 

[Bob J]

OK - time for a stupid confession (and I think I know the answer);
I assumed when people said you needed 5 or 6 pellets in head/neck area, I took it to mean EXACTLY in vertebrae and brain as shown on turkey target (mostly using Hoppes "Shotgun Pattern"). But if you count pellets ANYWHERE in head and neck, the 10 ga. is putting 6 to 13 pellets at 25 or 30 yards (using #5s). The 25 yard targets were on a windy day. And the pellet count within a 1 ft circle is as follows the four targets I kept; 68, 66, 57, 74. This is without shotcups. The Imp. Cyl barrel sometimes bests the modified barrel.
Maybe this is good patterning for a ML shotgun? :hmm:

 

[KyFlintlock]

In my opinion, you were right with having the pellets in the skull, vertebrae. That is where you gotta put em' to bring him home. Anywhere else in his head/neck doesn't count as he'll just fly off or run.

Good luck

 

[vinnynj]

bob go try your gun on tree rats at say 25- 30 yds if it kills them clean it will kill turkey clean rats ar tough youl se when you skin em

 

[Dave K]

My best patterns in my 10ga. cyl. bore SxS for turkey was 3 3/4dr. of 2F Goex and 1 3/4oz. of 6's or 5's. I used 2 over powder cards and no cushion at all. Of course I used an over shot card. Shoot this load at a good stout tin can, like a coffee can. If it blows through both sides of the can, it will take a turkey. Yes, this load is not enjoyable to shoot in my opinion, but it has to be effective!