Parker-Hale 1861 Enfield musketoon?

[Stantheman86]

Agreed with all your points. Here in UK there is nobody who makes ready-to-shoot cartridges - unless you count yourself. Very odd when you consider the comparatively large numbers of BP shooters... Our LGS has about eight musketoons of all vintages on the rack, from around £250 up to £450.

Watching the ever-popular capandball - a great proponent of the products of Pedersoli and a frequent visitor to the factory as well as exhibition stand presenter - shooting the DP version of the Enfield and the Whitworth just gets my teeth itching. Shooting these rifles at 50m/100 and maybe as far as 200m is like driving your Ferrari to the end of the parking lot.

You would think with the popularity of Muzzleloading in the UK and that the Pritchett cartridge was developed there, that it would be a really popular combo.

I'm sure Brett would work out a deal to ship a batch to the UK .

I order them 80 at a time since it makes the best use of his shipping rates, that allows me to fill up my 50 round cartridge box for a convenient range trip.......and leaves me 30 to pop off if I feel like bringing the Enfield along to wrap up a range day of shooting "other" guns.

No bringing powder measures, loose powder, bullets, etc just a cartridge box full of ammo and a full cap pouch. Quick clean up and I'm done.

I can almost match a shooter for RoF that's shooting a breech loader at a pace below "combat" and above "leisurely" with my Musketoon and Pritchett cartridges loading at a "brisk" speed. Once you get in the groove you get really good. I'm going to shoot with them in a Buffalo Match, maybe. They said they'd certainly allow it. And in fact those guys are looking forward to seeing a guy attempt the course of fire with a muzzleloading rifle.

I can easily make 1861 pattern cartridges but Pritchett cartridges are very hard to make , plus I have no way to compression cast the bullets.

Accuracy is a little better with Minies but the Pritchett is much faster and easier.

In combat , of that era the accuracy difference wouldn't much matter, I had no problem hitting an FBI Q-target with all of my shots at 100 from a standing position. I'm sure I could scare a bad guy out to 300 with them.

 

[ADK Bigfoot]

I shot a PH Musketoon and a PH 2-bander for 12 years in N-SSA competition. Both had higher blade front sights added to hit point of aim at 50 yards, and with the raised rear sight, at 100. We flattened the front sight, cut a slot into the base, and added a thin blade. Then we filed the blade until we got the sights where we needed them.

These are extremely accurate with the right bullets. I shot the 315grain Rapine WC minie (Lyman makes a copy) sized to .577 with 35 grains of FFFG and it would but cloverleaves at 50 yards.

I have a test-fired-only PH 2-bander now, but wish I had kept the musketoon when I left N-SSA.

Good luck with that rifle.

 

[jimhallam]

When I went to the Baltimore Show last month I took mainly originals from my own collection (as I am now 75 I am starting to thin it out significantly), but also three "long guns" from people who are giving up shooting due to age. I left 2 Parker-Hale "Musketoons" (one boxed) with REDDING Auctions of Gettysburg and a M1858 Naval Rifle (2 band 5-groove) with AMOSKEAG (Manchester NH) along with a Delhi Gun House 16bore flint "Dragoon" pistol and an original Sea Service pistol. They should be coming up soon.
I agree that the P-H Enfields are vastly superior to the Italian copies being touted around.

 

[Stantheman86]

The prices of used P-H rifles is about the same or less than a new Italian rifle.

I just saw a P-H 3-band 1853 in decent shape go for $990 a month back or so on GunBroker. A Pedersoli is over $1000, it's a no brainer.

Demand for the P-H rifles is relatively low compared to all kinds of other stuff which is why prices aren't insane on them. The average Joe in the gun world isnt scouring the Earth for rifle-muskets, you have to be an enthusiast to look for those.

I got my P-H .451 Volunteer for $1500 if I recall correctly and to me buying that was a no brainer , I'm like, well, time to put a dent in the savings

 

[Artificer]

Hi Buster,

North South Skirmish Association Shooters (and some of we reenactors) loved the REAL Parker Hale guns for their High Quality and interchangeability of parts with Original Interchangeable Pattern Enfield Rifles, such as the British Tower ones. The lock parts were at least as good, if not better than the originals.

P 1861's were very popular for the "Carbine Matches," for those who didn't mind the stock fit of the Parker Hales. Compared to the far less quality of other ML guns that were authorized for those matches, the Parker Hales stood out hands and shoulders above the rest as a Rifle that did not need a replacement barrel to successfully compete. The locks of the Italian rifles that qualified for that match were no where near the quality of the Parker Hales, either.

The "Musket Match" could be shot with either a 3 Band P 1853 or 2 Band P 1858. Though some folks competed with the 3 Band P 1853, generally the 2 Band P 1858 was a better rifle for the Offhand shooting done in those matches.

Congratulations, you have purchased an excellent rifle.

Oh, since the Front Sight has already been modified for NSSA or similar shooting, your Musketoon might also have already had a trigger job done on it. NSSA regulations call for at least a 3 lb. minimum trigger pull weight, but most of the time they are set at 3 1/2 to 4 pounds so they last a long time before wearing too light. That trigger pull is exceptionally better than the standard 10 to 13 pound trigger pulls common to both the Parker Hales and Original Interchangeable Pattern Enfield Rifles.

Gus

 

[TFoley]

My Musketoon has a trigger that 'lets off' at somewhere between 6 and 8 pounds, depending on the phases of the moon. Having owned it since the middle 1970's I'm not too fussed about it, just that goes 'bang' on demand. We've grown older and more scarred together, us.

 

[Stantheman86]

The Musketoons are also usually really good patched round ball shooters if you need to use those or just plink with it.

 

[rickystl]

Congratulations. That taller front sight should be a big help. About 10 years ago I purchased an unfired Euroarms 1858 2-band at a local gun show for $300.00. As with others, it shot very high. So I had a taller front sight and a trigger job done and it made all the difference. Made it much easier to sight it in on a bench at 25-yards, then move out to 50,75, etc. and know where to point.

Rick

 

[Artificer]

My Musketoon has a trigger that 'lets off' at somewhere between 6 and 8 pounds, depending on the phases of the moon. Having owned it since the middle 1970's I'm not too fussed about it, just that goes 'bang' on demand. We've grown older and more scarred together, us.

I hope I will be excused for this and for those of us on this side of the big pond, your trigger pull of between 6 and 8 pounds is in keeping with Military Rifles that many Americans are familiar with. The M1 and M14 ran 4 1/2 to 7 1/2 pounds, the M16A1 (and AR 15) run 5 to 8 pounds, the M16A2 with the horrible burst control device went 5 to 9 1/2 pounds, BUT often went up to between 11 to 14 pounds (sometimes more) when the two highest notches of that device were engaged.

I can emphatically state that after a good Trigger Job is done on these Percussion Military Rifles, the difference is not just noticeable to even new shooters, but put a look of Surprise and then Joy on their face the first couple times they tried the new trigger pull weight. Of course that always got them "spoiled," so they brought their other rifles up for that work as well.

Gus

 

[TFoley]

I hope I will be excused for this and for those of us on this side of the big pond, your trigger pull of between 6 and 8 pounds is in keeping with Military Rifles that many Americans are familiar with. The M1 and M14 ran 4 1/2 to 7 1/2 pounds, the M16A1 (and AR 15) run 5 to 8 pounds, the M16A2 with the horrible burst control device went 5 to 9 1/2 pounds, BUT often went up to between 11 to 14 pounds (sometimes more) when the two highest notches of that device were engaged.

I can emphatically state that after a good Trigger Job is done on these Percussion Military Rifles, the difference is not just noticeable to even new shooters, but put a look of Surprise and then Joy on their face the first couple times they tried the new trigger pull weight. Of course that always got them "spoiled," so they brought their other rifles up for that work as well.

Gus

I, too, am ex-military, and well-used to creepy/squishy/endless trigger pulls - it goes with the job. However, rules are rules, and the triggers must be 'as issued'. And as an aside, a contact over here who has been talking to me about getting a two-band .451 P-H has bought one with serial #299. He is the second owner from new.

 

[Eterry]

As my Sgt used to say... this is the same, only different.
I bought a very clean Navy Arms 1861 musketoon and it has the same rear sight as yours, and original front.
She would hit 6-9 inches high at 50, and even though i told myself... Hold Low... when the moment came i forgot and shot way high on a fat doe.
I was complaining to my dad, and he said " use a fine bead". The thought never crossed my mind... even though that's how he always sighted in his guns.
Imagine my surprise when holding the top of the front in the bottom of the rear sight gave me poa hits at 50 yards.
I guess he knew what he was doing.

 

[Artificer]

I, too, am ex-military, and well-used to creepy/squishy/endless trigger pulls - it goes with the job. However, rules are rules, and the triggers must be 'as issued'. And as an aside, a contact over here who has been talking to me about getting a two-band .451 P-H has bought one with serial #299. He is the second owner from new.

Well, since you have to use the trigger "as issued," your trigger pull is much better than normally found, so good for you.

Gus

 

[ResearchPress]

Imagine my surprise when holding the top of the front in the bottom of the rear sight gave me poa hits at 50 yards.

People often bemoan about Enfields shooting high, while in general I don’t believe they are using the sights as they were originally intended. 19thC British musketry instruction taught the use of a half sight as standard, i.e. the point of the fore-sight is aligned midway between the shoulder and bottom of the back-sight. To increase elevation a full sight was taken, and to reduce it a fine sight. So the advice you had was right out of the instruction manuals!

Many I think are using a full sight with a rifle that has 100 yards as the minimum elevation. Of course it’s going to shoot high...

If all shooting is at short range then raising the foresight may have merit. I shoot my Enfield at 50 yards - 600 yards (sometimes further). So, before heading off to the workshop (or paying someone to alter a sight) learn to use the sights as intended and you’ll gain a lot more versatility.

David

 

[Stantheman86]

I began using "fine beads" and half sight pictures 20+ years ago when I was an avid military surplus "unmentionable " rifle shooter, since nearly every single one of those is sighted to 300m at the front sight to "grunt proof" them.

Using a sight picture with just the top of the often rounded and battered barleycorn front sight just barely visible in the bottom of the notch was often effective.

Also trigger pulls with a let off that's often a vague guess will teach you to use the basic fundamentals of rifle marksmanship that many of us had to learn in Basic training.

Using the "dry fire dime drill" would probably still be effective.

 

[jimhallam]

I mst suppport David's comments under his pseudonym "Researchpress".
The standard method was to refer to a "full sight" (tip of f/s level with the shoulder of the r/s) or a "fine sight" (where the tip of the f/s was at the bottom of the "notch")
One must remember that the "Patridge" type sights with nice rectangular apsects to both the blade and the notch were the exception rather than the rule --- and were developed for purely TARGET-shooting, whereas the military sights (if fitted at all!) were for quick acquisition and "pointing" --- one of the reasons for the development of the bead foresights for sporting use, along with the Buckhorn.

As for triggerweight the more important thing is to get the CREEP out of the let-off, which can be done by judicious stoning at the correct angle. I would FAR rather have a heavy trigger with a "snap" (sometimes described a like breaking a glass rod) than a light trigger which was unreliable - and often unsafe. Of couse for REALLY light triggers especially where the mainspring needs to be strong to ensure a firm strike the lock needs to be detented so that the sear doesn't catch in the half-cock bent ---- something which is of NO consideration for a military arm.

 

[Paddywonka]

My 1861 Ser.No. 1668 Musketoon came with all the original paper work, manual & Parker Hale's version of "Instruction of Musketry'' which shows the proper front blade in rear sight position. Otherwise would never of thought of moving the front blade in the V of the rear sight to match the range. Any idea what year it was made? Also have the 2 band 1858 Ser.No. 1974.

 

[ResearchPress]

Both are c1974. If you ever remove barrel from stock and look at proof load info stamped underneath... let me know the tiny code stamped with it - 2 letters and a number either between crossed sword or in a circle. I can then let you know what year the barrel was proofed and it will all help building up information in my production database.

Serial numbers at this time follow no pattern... 1966 is a P.58, 1971 is a P.53, 1973 a P.61 and 1974 a P.58...

David

 

[Paddywonka]

David,
On the Musketoon No 1668 under the barrel near the breach it has what appears to be two crossed flags? with the letters Y & B.

 

[ResearchPress]

David,
On the Musketoon No 1668 under the barrel near the breach it has what appears to be two crossed flags? with the letters Y & B.

Your barrel was proofed in 1973.

David

 

[Bokbefok]

Mine is # 1155.

Paid £240 for this PH and a Navy Arms BP shotgun.