Parker Hale Enfield vs Euroarms Enfield

[mag318]

Buying 2 Enfields and both I believe are Parker Hale. #1 is a Musketoon that I'm 100% positive its a Parker Hale Birmingham manufacture. #2 is a 2 Band that I'm fairly positive is a Parker Hale manufacture. What #2 is lacking is the PH cartouche that is usually on the right butt. But the lock is marked PH and the barrel Parker Hale. I just want to be sure #2 is an original Parker Hale and not a Euroarms. From what little research I've done PH when they stopped making their muzzle loaders they sold everything to Euroarms in Italy. Examining #2 this afternoon at the dealers I could find nothing saying "Made in Italy" but the lack of the PH cartouche concerns me. Here are some photos an any opinions are welcome.

 

[rmark]

Not mine, I found this online awhile back -

Here, from the MLAGB archives of 2010, is the skinny on serial numbers -

ALL rifles and Musketoons - two band, three band and Whitworth - ALL calibres, that is to say, both .577/.58" and .451"

- 0000 to ~9000 were made in Birmingham

~9000 to 14000 Birmingham barrels, rest made in Italy

>14000 Italian made.

 

[rmark]

My Parker Hale 2 band is all Italian, it has Italy engraved on the trigger guard, but I don't know where in the series that started.

 

[rmark]

not mine, found it online -

Italian date codes since 1945 to 2015 -

I = 1945, II =46, III = 47, IV = 48, V = 49, VI = 50, VII = 51, VIII = 52, IX = 53, X = 54, XI = 55, XII = 56, XIII = 57, XIV = 58, XV = 59, XVI = 60, XVII = 61, XVIII = 62, XIX = 63, XX =64, XXI = 65, XXII = 66, XXIII = 67, XXIV = 68, XXV = 69, XXVI = 70, XVII = 71, XXVII - 72, XXIX = 73, XXX = 74, AA = 75, AB = 76, AC = 77, AD =78, AE = 79, AF =80, AH = 81, AI = 82, AL = 83, AM = 84, AN = 85, AP = 85, AS = 87, AT = 88, AU = 89, AZ = 90, BA = 91, BB = 92, BC = 93, BD = 94, BF = 95, BH = 96, BI = 97, BL = 98, BM = 99, BN = 2000, BP = O1, BS =02, BT = 03, BU = 04, BZ = 05, CA = 06, CB = 07, CC =08, CD = 09, CF = 10, CH = 11, CJ = 12, CM 13, CN = 14, CP =15.

These codes can be found stamped on the right-hand side [usually] of the firearm, long or short, and appear inside a little box - about 1/8th square or so.

Note that there are no letters J, Q or W...and sometimes, no E either

 

[mag318]

Thanks Mark, that' great info. Checked my serial numbers and 1 is in the 4000 range and the other 7000 so I'm happy they're both Birmingham made.

 

[tjiann]

Buying 2 Enfields and both I believe are Parker Hale. #1 is a Musketoon that I'm 100% positive its a Parker Hale Birmingham manufacture. #2 is a 2 Band that I'm fairly positive is a Parker Hale manufacture. What #2 is lacking is the PH cartouche that is usually on the right butt. But the lock is marked PH and the barrel Parker Hale. I just want to be sure #2 is an original Parker Hale and not a Euroarms. From what little research I've done PH when they stopped making their muzzle loaders they sold everything to Euroarms in Italy. Examining #2 this afternoon at the dealers I could find nothing saying "Made in Italy" but the lack of the PH cartouche concerns me. Here are some photos an any opinions are welcome.View attachment 236360View attachment 236362View attachment 236364View attachment 236366View attachment 236368

Did you ever get information about the lack of cartouche? I've got a Birmingham P58 (all barrel and lock markings correct) set up for skirmishing in N-SSA but without a stock cartouche.

 

[Sir Boniface Harrison]

Is there a difference in quality between the British and the Italian made ones?

 

[dave951]

Is there a difference in quality between the British and the Italian made ones?

In my experience, the UK ones are more accurate- generally.

 

[BillinOregon]

A key difference is the rifling. Brett Gibbons explains.

 

[CyrusP]

Not mine, I found this online awhile back -

Here, from the MLAGB archives of 2010, is the skinny on serial numbers -

ALL rifles and Musketoons - two band, three band and Whitworth - ALL calibres, that is to say, both .577/.58" and .451"

- 0000 to ~9000 were made in Birmingham

~9000 to 14000 Birmingham barrels, rest made in Italy

>14000 Italian made.

I have to question this: my PH Musketoon, serial number 9798 has the certificate of authenticity from Parker Hale.

 

[ResearchPress]

I have to question this: my PH Musketoon, serial number 9798 has the certificate of authenticity from Parker Hale.

Yes, you’d be right to question the quoted post - especially as the MLAGB do not hold such archives. (I am a member and edit their quarterly magazine ‘Black Powder’).

Over quite a few years I have kept track of PH serial numbers, and that data does not accord with my current information.

David

 

[CyrusP]

Thank you David. Coming from you, this is a solid confirm.

 

[BigSkyRambler]

Yes, you’d be right to question the quoted post - especially as the MLAGB do not hold such archives. (I am a member and edit their quarterly magazine ‘Black Powder’).

Over quite a few years I have kept track of PH serial numbers, and that data does not accord with my current information.

David

So my SN 9048 Musketoon with Birmingham proofs and PH stock cartouche is all British?

 

[CyrusP]

Edit: I’ll let the experts answer.

 

[ResearchPress]

So my SN 9048 Musketoon with Birmingham proofs and PH stock cartouche is all British?

Yes.

David

 

[TFoley]

Mr Minshall, there is a Musketoon #9046 for sale on the forum.