Patch and Ball

[nchawkeye]

Are you suggesting that it is normal for the gun to need cleaning between each shot?? It seems to me that it would suggest that something is wrong. This month I went to my first Rondy and watched people shoot ten to twelve shots with never swabbing the bore once. Why is mine different??

Yep, that's what I'm saying... :thumbsup:

Not after every shot though, although in competition I do clean between each shot...

I can get hunting accuracy for 4-5 shots by moving to a thinner patch, but hunting accuracy isn't target accuracy...

Half of black powder is left over as residue after the shot...It's better to wipe every few shots to keep the barrel clean than to keep packing that residue back down the barrel...

You groups will be tighter and you run less of a risk of breaking your ramrod or having a stuck ball down in the barrel...

 

[Grenadier1758]

Thanks Graham, that is interesting because that is exactly what I have been tryng to use, a .490 ball and a .15 lubed patch. Here is the problem, the first set slides down the barrel with out a problem, the second is tough the third is hard and the forth is impossible!! If you follow my other posts you will see the process of insuring that my barrel is clean and free prior to each session. So with that in mind, am I using to thick a patch??? ball??? or is this typical??? it just seems that I should be able to run more than two loads through before it gets stuck. Today's forth load got stuck 1" from the top and had to beat down the barrel. So with all that what am I doing wrong???

So far there is nothing fundamentally "wrong" with what is happening. Its time to take a review of what we are observing for your specific CVA Mountain Rifle. What other posters have mentioned is that fouling is building up for each shot and that fouling is making it difficult to load.

There are two approaches to address the fouling issue. One is to wipe the bore after each shot. Take care to use a fairly loose patch that will slide past the fouling, bunch up at the breech when the patch is withdrawn and pull out the fouling. An other method is to use a wet patch to hold the ball. The wet patch will push the fouling down the barrel.

You want to avoid pushing the fouling down into the powder chamber of your mountain rifle.

If the rifle is otherwise producing accurate groups, then you can see that both of the above loading methods are wiping between shots. One is a separate patch and the other is using the patch wrapping the ball to wipe the fouling from the bore.

So, load your rifle to obtain the best performance. The need for wiping between shots is not an indication of a serious problem. Wiping between shots is just want your rifle wants you to do for best performance.

All rifles are different. Yours is not that unique.

 

[HPS]

Dandyfunk, I’m new to ML too and just had my first session with a new GPR last week. These folks are all giving you good suggestions and possibilities but I’m going to add one thing that has been a very big help to me and that’s Dutch Schoultz’s Black Powder Rifle Accuracy system. It is a small investment for all you’ll learn concerning your questions and more. I read through the study before ever venturing to the range, it doesn’t take long and its enjoyable, and you’ll have more confidence about what you what to do and want to accomplish when you get to the range. It makes it a whole lot more fun. This is an unsolicited endorsement of a gent’s knowledge and experience that he decided to share because of his love of Muzzle Loading. You’ll find many interesting things in the documents like his recipe for Moose Milk which I mixed and used just as he suggested and give it a big thumbs up. :thumbsup:

Anyway, at least take a look at his website http://www.blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com/index.html
you’ll be glad you did. This ML is something else and I’m having a ball.

Wishing you the best with you new endeavor. :hatsoff:

 

[cynthialee]

.485-.495
the smaller the ball the thicker the patch needed to seal and secure

I imagine that you could shoot just about any ball down a muzzle loader you can fit down the barrel and patch sufficiently to give it spin and seal the gases.

Try a .490 ball with a .010 or .015 patch. Even though you could use a .485 ball it will require a very thick patch. A .495 ball will require a patch that may be too thin to survive the fire in the barrel in good enough shape to seal the gases.

 

[hanshi]

My best shooting .50s liked a .490" ball and a .024" ticking patch lubed with Hoppes BP lube - started with a .016" patch and never had to wipe. The slightly tighter .024" patch left the bore even cleaner with no crud ring after 40 to 50 shots without wiping. A snug prb fit is one part of a cleaner barrel.

 

[F.G. Ford]

Hello Dandyfunk,
If you want to make noise, then just pour some powder down the barrel, and then put something on top, then pull the trigger. You won't hit anything, but it will make a noise.
BUT if you want to hit something ( small target ) you have to be consistent.
That means everything must be the same. That means the barrel must be very similar to the proceeding shot. If your barrel is getting progressively dirty, your loading will be getting harder with each shot.
So, you first shot should be a fouling shot (no ball needed ) Then pour you favourite charge down the barrel, and then the best patch thickness and ball size.
But your patch should be moistened with some magical solution that will swab your barrel and lube the ball with each shot. Saliva works to a degree, if you shoot rather quickly after each shot, if it is left for a short while, it will dry out, resulting in a poorly lubed ball & patch combination. Reading Dutch Shultz paper on good shooting will confirm this process.
It makes no difference if you put 50-60-70- grains of powder but it must be the same, your patching & lubing is the same.
You can bang the ball with the ram rod 47 times or once, it must be the same.
If you change the powder, your impact point will most likely change.
Everybody has a secret formula that works for them, many times they will share this secret with you, so don't tell anybody else :grin:
Years ago I tried axle grease for lube, it must work, right. WRONG! Worse combination possible. The result after several shots was like tar in the barrel. ( I made a lot of mistakes in my journey of muzzleloading )
And you can't pour a cup of water down the barrel. it will soften the crud in the barrel, but it is a little hard to ignite the powder.
Your lubed patch, has to survive year round conditions. Hot, cold wet and dry.
Good luck, on your quest for great muzzleloading.
It is a fun journey.
Fred

 

[Sean Gadhar]

Well I think you hit the Dust or Note Bookpoint in a muzzleloaders life.

You give up & your rifle gets dusty in you closet, or you get a notebook, and start working up a load for that gun :grin: I like the pocket notebook myself, some guys keep notes on each target (seems like a smart idea) I for one think you need to try a lube change. I world bring at least 3 with me & start with spit (it's free)
IMHO T/C Bore Butter has it's uses



Just not in my rifle :wink:

 

[Billnpatti]

Here is the secret: www.blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com Buy the set of papers from Dutch and do what he says. The man knows whereof he speaks. Doing what Dutch says to do and in the order he specifies and you will end up with your most accurate load in the least amount of time and with the least expenditure of money for powder, balls and caps. There is a right way to go about finding that one best load for your rifle and Dutch tells you the secret of exactly what that way is.

 

[Dandyfunk]

Thank you all for your help. ff I have a question for the moderators. Why do you keep moving my topics?? This topic was placed in "Percussion rifles" because it pertains to a specific percussion rifle. My title is "Patch and Ball". The body of the text speaks specifically to a CVA rifle and it got moved here, while back on the percussion rifle forum there is a thread titled "patch and ball fit" which still resides their??? The posters text body is the same as mine....i.e. patch and ball fit to a specific rifle????? In fact my thread was posted directly on top of his yet his remains in the subject area?????

 

[TLanoy]

I notice this happens a lot and even happened to one of my posts. I don't think they know themselves! :surrender:

 

[azmntman]

One er two of mine and one with political overtone edited to remove the unallowable chat.

 

[Zonie]

I can't speak for the others but there are 7 people on the forum who can move or modify topics or posts.

Whether a topic gets moved or a post changed is up to each of these people and different people see the same post differently.
Where most of the Moderators probably thought this topic was fine where it was, one thought it would be better if it was moved here.

Some topics like this one discuss both loading and shooting a percussion gun and the balls and patches needed to do it so, IMO, it could have been posted in either the Percussion or the Shooting Accessories area.

Although I didn't move this topic, I can see where a moderator might have thought that although the topic was written about a percussion firearm it would be beneficial to shooters who like to shoot flintlocks as well.

Some flintlock shooters don't visit the percussion forum area and likewise, some percussion shooters don't visit the flintlock forum area.

My advice to people who get their posts moved is, don't take it personally.
It isn't done to harass the member. It was done because one of the moderators or the owner of the Forum felt the topic would be more useful to the members to have the topic moved somewhere else.

 

[Travis Gregory]

I have a .50.mtn rifle and the load it likes is 60gr of 3f Goex and .490 ball with .018 ticking patch. I have tried diffrent loads and lube combos for several years. While i have seen changes in group size with different loads i have the same exact results you are having with the loading difficulty. I have found i have to clean my bore with a wet patch and then a dry patch after every shot in order to keep group size small and b able to keep loading for more than 2 shots. If i am hunting i dont need to clean between shots because accuracy is good enough and i have never needed more than 2 shots. I have found mink oil to b my best lube so far. It leaves the bore cleaner and doesnt dry out as bad as bore butter or other lubes i have tried.

 

[Dandyfunk]

Thanks Turk, Last night I cleaned the barrel with boiling water in the hope to melt years of different lubes that I suspect have been used in this gun. It appeared to have cleaned out a lot of crud. Lets hope that my next shooting session has better results. While I know that fouling can make it tough to load I think mine was demonstrating a way worse condition. My last shooting session consisted of one fouling shot, on tough load (almost did not get the ball down the barrel by hand) and the second getting stuck 1" down and needing to be beat in with a mallet and carbon rod!!! The load consisted of a speer bullets .490 RB and a .15 patch with Procession 2000 lube. I am hoping for a better result next time out. Df

 

[Dandyfunk]

Zonie, While I am not personally offended by the movement of my thread, it does frustrate me for two reasons. One, the continuity of readers and posters is lost. A poster has to search his own posts to find my thread to continue the conversation, and two I have to go to "My Topics" to relocate it. I understand thread relocation if the topic is way off the section subject heading for sure. I have started ten topics since joining, four have been relocated, one relocation I agree with three I do not. Df

 

[mooman76]

Another reason for relocating is for the future. I have been on some forums that almost never move topics and people seem to post anywhere they want without consideration or thought. I have responded to their question(s) and later tried to go back to see their response to my answer and couldn't find it. I have had to do a forum search a time or two just to find it. It also helps if someone else has the same question because hopefully they will see it and won't post a repeat question.
This was not directed at you because like others said yours was kind of boarder line but other guns use patches also, so maybe it is better suited here.

 

[Claude Mathis]

One, the continuity of readers and posters is lost. A poster has to search his own posts to find my thread to continue the conversation, and two I have to go to "My Topics" to relocate it.

When a thread is moved, there's a link where it used to be that points to the new location. The link remains there for 3 days - ample time for anyone active in the conversation to find it and bookmark the topic's new location.

 

[jamesthomas]

I just read another thread on this forum on the same subject and the consensus is a .490 and a .15 patch for the start. But this is the combo that is getting stuck in my barrel after three loads????

It could be the type of powder you are using. If you check out my thread "Shooting without wiping" on page 2 in the General Muzzleloading forum you will find out I was having the same problem (hard loading after 3 or 4 shots). When I changed powders (3fff KIK to 2ff Olde Ensford) my problems disappeared and I can now shoot 20+ times without wiping if I want to. It makes for a very pleasant day at the range and saves on cleaning patches.

 

[Ken Cormier]

What a 're you using for lube?

 

[Dandyfunk]

The load consisted of a speer bullets .490 RB and a .15 patch with Procession 2000 lube. I am hoping for a better result next time out. Df

This is my last load attempt.