patch boxes

[carolina cowboy]

Hi Guys
I went to my first black powder walk through this past weekend”¦.it consisted of a set course of 24 targets”¦..from 20 to 80 yards..in size from 6 inches by 14 inches at 25 yards to a Bear at 80 yards that you had to hit the heart area to move the flag to a chain hanging down at 20 yards and you had to hit one of the links”¦some were through brush and some were in the clear”¦.most required a fair amount of accuracy”¦.these guys were all here because they love black powder, no PC or HC at this shoot”¦just a bunch of guys that love to shoot black powder..questions”¦..there were 14 shooters,11 had flintlocks, they made me shoot 8 of them :haha: ”¦..big difference in guns”¦..all were 50 caliber except 2, there was one 54 caliber and one 40 caliber”¦”¦there were swamped barrels and straight barrels, some were cheap kits, some were expensive kits to EXPENSIVE custom made guns”¦..there was and is a difference”¦at least half had patch boxes, none used them..is this just a fashion statement? Not sure how to put that, but if I am having a custom gun made, and having a patch box effects only the price(both are PC and HC from my understanding) why pay the extra expense if I am not going to use it”¦.another thing was the caliber”¦.all but two had 50 caliber”¦is that the way to go over say a 45 caliber?
Thanks in advance

 

[rabjr]

At some point you have to decide what you want on your gun. Not all guns had patchboxes, not all people use them for anything today, some put some things like a tool, flints and cleaning jags wrapped in leather or just placed in the box. Its really a preference thing.

 

[tg]

The majority of guns had the patchbox and it can be an identifying factor as to school.builder and time frame if one is really wanting a PC/HC rifle the patchbox is a good investment along with a swamped barrel for an 18th century gun, .50 is a good choice in bore size if any hunting is to be done and a bit more the norm if the gun is early rev war or earlier as you see may times one thing effects another and it is the whole not the individual parts one looks at when making a rifle that is expected to be HC/PC to a time/school/builder, it is best to decide what time period you ant to be in within 5-10 years this gives some guidelines to the newest type of gun/gun accessories available, if the while PC/HC history thing is not really important than all the above does not matter a TC, Lyman Great Plains will work as well as anything, if history is important decide how close you want to be to the real deal so to speak and set your standards and make your choices, research what was available and choose from these things do not find things you like then try to make them fit into your chosen time, that's about all hopefully others will give you some more to ponder on, it is just easier to take the time to figure out what you want and get it right the first time, use caution relying on gun sellers and and vendors for getting the pc/hC aspect correct most are into selling a product not giving valid accurate history lessons.

 

[Zonie]

danial boone
tg pretty much covered it.

A Patchbox was very common on all of the Pennsylvania made rifles and most of the Virginia rifles.
Patchboxes on the Southern, New England and Tennessee rifles weren't as common.

If you don't care about the historical aspects of it then of course your free to do anything you want to do.

I don't know what the current costs are to buy and have installed a patchbox but if the type of gun you choose to get usually had a patchbox give some serious consideration to having one installed.

Installing one is not difficult when the gun is being built but if the stock is totally finished, adding a patchbox is very difficult. In other words, it would be difficult and expensive to decide you wanted to add one after you received the gun.

It kinda reminds me of one gun that I built.
I decided before I started that I wanted a plain maple stock for it so that is what I bought.
150 hours of building time later I kicked myself in the butt for not spending a little extra money up front and buying a nice curly maple stock for it.

Yes, today most people do not use the patchbox that is on their guns. There is even some argument about what the folks back in the day actually used them for. (There is some documentation that they were used for patches and it is suspected that flints and small tools were stored in them).

In any case, it's your rifle so if you do not intend to reenact, do as you see fit.

 

[matt denison]

"at least half had patch boxes, none used them..is this just a fashion statement?"

You have to rethink what is meant by "use them". I don't dig around in my patch box out on a trail like that but I still use it. I have a ball puller, a jag, extra flints, a few cleaning patches in mine. If you watched me shoot at a trail walk you wouldn't see me "use" the patch box but in reality I really am. I bet a lot of others do too.

 

[roundball]

"...big difference in guns”¦..all were 50 caliber except 2, there was one 54 caliber and one 40 caliber..."
"...all but two had 50 caliber...is that the way to go over say a 45 caliber?..."

Others have covered the patchbox issue well...personally I've never used one in almost 20 years and did not include them on some Virginias I had built as my Flintlocks are used for weekend shooting / hunting, not re-enacting or adherence to particular notions of PC/HC.

But on the subject of caliber, the choice really comes down to what you're going to use it for and if you happen to have other MLs or not. For example, IMHO, the .40/.45cals are pretty economical / enjoyable for target shooting, but the .50/.54/.58/.62cals are better suited for big game hunting under variable hunting conditions and distances.

If you're just going to shoot targets then a .40/.45cal would be very attractive.
If you're going to shoot a lot of targets AND hunt big game with the same rifle, to me that would tip the scales towards the larger .50/.54cals.
If you're fortunate enough to end up with a couple calibers, then a .40 and a .54 might be a good combination...or .45 and .58, etc.

Its all about your particular interests and uses, the amount of money you might want to invest in the hobby, etc...enjoy

 

[rafterob]

The times I do use mine is on trail walks. It is the only time i bother with pre-cut patches because it eliminates a step and a tool. No need for the patch knife or cutting at the muzzle. The fewer things to fumble through the better.

 

[Vaino]

Some members w/ more knowledge of "originals" and who have actually viewed "originals" might chime in as to whether these Pbox cavities hold evidence that they were in fact used. Personally, I don't use them, preferring to carry "my stuff" in a shoulder bag. All the LRs I've built have Pboxes because they sell quickly because many original LRs pictured in "the books" have one, so why fight it? I guess it just "boils down" to personal tastes and whether one wants to spend the extra money......Fred

 

[ebiggs1]

Do you not think we are comparing apples to oranges. I doubt the old timers did trail walks but used their patch boxes differently. Like hunting where a shot or two was all that was taken. Not the 24 or so needed for a trail walk? I just find multiple shots are much easier from the bag.
I would stick with a 50 cal. I would have said a 45 if there weren't 80 yard shots involved.

 

[carolina cowboy]

You guys are a wealth of knowledge, and I thank you :bow: ....the patch box is something I think I will go with since this is my first gun and you guys have made some very valid points, and true, I did not check to see if they had anything in them, but cleaning parts and a few tools would make a lot of sense and it does make the gun LOOK more like what a person thinks about when picturing a ML..as far as the caliber is concerned, I have not hunted in 30 years, and not sure I would want to with this gun...hunted a lot in my younger days, and killed a lot of deer up until I was in my late 20’s, but I cannot rule it out entirely.....so maybe the 50 caliber will be the way to go, most of the guys shooting liked that caliber, so more to think about....another question, and I have a ton of them ....shooting blocks, I was reading that precut patches are not PC(correct me if I am wrong please) so having a shooting block with precut patches would not be PC? Did the people use shooting blocks in the olden days?
About being PC and HC, I went about this backwards as some of you know , I wanted to buy a ML and picked out one I liked and then went and found a builder with the intention of just taking it to the range and shooting it....then I found this site, and it has opened up a WHOLE NEW world to me :wink: ......I know this is a stupid question, but I don’t suppose there is any one style of ML that would cover the time period from say 1770 to 1820 is there? I am now having to try and define just what time period I want to have my persona to be from.....my club has rendezvous twice a year, so I know I want to be able to do that, but I would also like to be able to do the reenactments of the Revolution War at some time as well I think(I was raised in Greensboro NC, so have been to Guilford Battle Ground a 100 times, and the swamp Fox was one of my childhood heroes as well as Daniel Boone of course) so that most likely will require two guns, one pre Rev, and one for the Fur Trade era....so give me some options in what would be your choice of guns if it were you in my shoes, and had the money to buy one now, and another in the next 12 months to allow you to be PC and HC for both of those eras, and Please pictures if you can, so I can copy them to send to my builder if I find one or two I like...and fell free to PM me .....

 

[Dphar]

Hi Guys
I went to my first black powder walk through this past weekend”¦.it consisted of a set course of 24 targets”¦..from 20 to 80 yards..in size from 6 inches by 14 inches at 25 yards to a Bear at 80 yards that you had to hit the heart area to move the flag to a chain hanging down at 20 yards and you had to hit one of the links”¦some were through brush and some were in the clear”¦.most required a fair amount of accuracy”¦.these guys were all here because they love black powder, no PC or HC at this shoot”¦just a bunch of guys that love to shoot black powder..questions”¦..there were 14 shooters,11 had flintlocks, they made me shoot 8 of them :haha: ”¦..big difference in guns”¦..all were 50 caliber except 2, there was one 54 caliber and one 40 caliber”¦”¦there were swamped barrels and straight barrels, some were cheap kits, some were expensive kits to EXPENSIVE custom made guns”¦..there was and is a difference”¦at least half had patch boxes, none used them..is this just a fashion statement? Not sure how to put that, but if I am having a custom gun made, and having a patch box effects only the price(both are PC and HC from my understanding) why pay the extra expense if I am not going to use it”¦.another thing was the caliber”¦.all but two had 50 caliber”¦is that the way to go over say a 45 caliber?
Thanks in advance

Some people use them for patches. But I beleive that they are best used for worms and other tools used with the gun and maybe a wad of tow or other cleaning patch material. Having this stuff in the pouch is a PITA and more liable to loss.
They come in very handy for this. A couple of paper cartridges, yes they work in rifles for fast followup if made right, is another option.
Given the choice I would rather have one than not.
If oiled patches, bear, neatsfoot etc are used they are of limited usefulness since the oil will soak into the wood. Tallow and other lubes less so but they will tend to attack the brass, IE turn it green.
50 caliber is an excellent choice of a general purpose rifle. Perfect for deer and match shooting.
45 is OK for deer etc.
40 and under is a squirrel rifle.
Larger game like Elk need at least 54 which also works well for deer etc but is less common in "Kentucky" rifles that survive.
45-50 caliber was very popular in the east even in the rev war period. Same reason as now. Adequate for the game and uses less powder and lead than a 54. Calibers over 54 in original eastern rifles are very rare.
In the west by 1820 calibers swung to 50-54 being the norm. Under 50 was too light for the distances, wind and larger and in some cases more dangerous western game.

Dan

 

[nchawkeye]

Guess I'm the odd ball...

I don't want an American Long Rifle without a patchbox...I use mine for a length of rolled up patching, vent pick, extra flint and my knapping tool...

 

[Zonie]

Not all of the Mountain men were equipped with plains rifles so buying a half stock really isn't needed for attending a rendezvous.

A rifle of .50 caliber or larger would be more fitting for use in the plains but groups of trappers almost always had a few support people with them to do the camp work like hunting.
I mention these people because they hunted small game for the pot when the bigger critters weren't in abundance. This would make a .45 or even a .40 a possible choice for the Mountain man era.
Also, the early trapping ventures were made in the teens and 'twentys before percussion guns were widely used so a full stock flintlock should be right at home.

I guess I'm mentioning this because rather than thinking that you will need two rifles you could spend a little of what the second gun would cost to get something a little more special on just one gun.

Then again, when it comes to muzzleloading rifles, more is better. You might want to think about the next three? :grin:

 

[tg]

"I was reading that precut patches are not PC"

I think you will find with further research that precut patches were a common thing possibly more so trhan cutting at the muzzle and as likley square as round, the ball board thing is a debated issue as to when tghey were in use many of the more researched folks think they were a post 1800 thing along with short starters, not meaning any bad feelings here but is is best to use as many sources as possible and you will be better off, I have seen a trend over the years that almost looks like some folks reda one shaper of one book and base everything on that, again no offense directed at you, it is great to see you asking questuions with an honest curiosity about the history of the sport, this is all to often missing with an attitude of I like this or that,how can I make it PC/HC, keep reading and asking, you can have a gun that was made in 1770 and still be in use in 1820 just like a lot of WW2 '06's are still around today, a lot of flintlocks were converted to caplocks in the 1830-40 period, even guns from the early 1700's, the cardinal sin so to speak is to have a 1820 type gun and try to do a 1770 persona, this thing only works the one way.A Rev War period rifle of your choice would work for both events you migh do, not evey Mt Man went west with a brand new latest tech/style rifle, enjoy studying of the past, and enjoy the journey.

 

[carolina cowboy]

Thanks TG and everyone one that has replied

This endeavor is definitely adding to my library to say the least. I have been on the American long rifle forum reading up on as much information I could find as well as doing as much online research as possible, though there seems to be a wealth of information out there; it also seems to be quite limited online . I am also doing as many searches on here to read as much as I can from other posts(old) to try not to rehash old questions. To be honest I find my lack of knowledge of our early heritage to be rather depressing, I guess I have let Hollywood shape a lot of my perceptions of early American history without realizing it and have forgotten the History lessons I learned in school. Another trip to the bookstore is in order tonight as well. I think I want to develop my persona to be a person born around 1760, so my persona can experience the Revolution War through the Westward movement and the fur trade era. They say you are never too old to learn, and thanks to this forum and you guys, my desire for knowledge has really gone up. As far as being PC and HC I think I want to try to stay as close as possible just to experience it as our forefathers did and to learn the real history by practicing it. This has turned a simple decision to buy a ML to shoot into a history lesson as well learning experience. Could anyone recommend a couple of books that I could get that would shed more light on the real history of the 1760’s to the 1820’s?

PS. I have it bad, I ordered my first fire starting kit today

 

[matt denison]

"If oiled patches, bear, neatsfoot etc are used they are of limited usefulness since the oil will soak into the wood."

Funny that you should mention that Dan. My problem with bear greased patches is I couldn't stop my lame brained bird dog from wanting to lick my patch box. It fascinated her to no end.

 

[tg]

My dogs could always find my Beaver lure bottle if I left/dropped it somewhere, and we covered ways of protecting the patchbox interior from the grease on the patches some boxes have been found with hardened lube still in them.

 

[Dphar]

My dogs could always find my Beaver lure bottle if I left/dropped it somewhere, and we covered ways of protecting the patchbox interior from the grease on the patches some boxes have been found with hardened lube still in them.

Its personal preference then and now. Lots of original boxes are dry and greaseless too.

Dan

PS "Patchbox" is modern term IIRC they were not called such back in the day.

 

[HOGGHEAD]

I just ordered my first custom MZ. I ordered it without a patchbox. I went with the options of making it a better shooter. IMO a patchbox is money wasted. But then I am not necessarily big on being correct. I just want a fine shooting 50 caliber FL. But I will admit that I ponied up for the best grade of wood they have. I saw no need to put a patchbox in the middle of that great looking wood.

I will admit that I enjoy reading about all the period correct features of the rifles. But when it comes to the money I am spending I do not give being period correct alot of importance. But I still find it intriguing. Tom.

 

[ryzman]

well said. :thumbsup: