patch lube question

Murphys is not a detergent, and I don't know in my experience what "binding salts" refers too. What I do know is murphys has a-lot of other chemicals that is harmful to steel. I don't know how controlled your testing is but I'm sure the murphys is acting as a soap independent of the other ingredients. Being so the murphys is not soluble, but miscible in water. Therefore ambient air moisture keeps it and the inert ingredients to attack the steel. As far as the 2003 Lube you bought..You'll have to take that up with Scott Lee from the Old Ox-Yoke. I replaced any of those Ox-Yoke bottles for free as a good faith gesture. Here's a link from an independent lab that tested a variety of commercial lubes.[url] http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/mlexperiments/corrosion/corrosion2.html[/url] :winking:

I was just informed the pH for moose juice, mixed as directed, is 8.2; slightly alkali.

I'm cleaning a $3,000 "natural patina" (unblued) flintlock with it. If I catch a breechplug in the cheek I'll be sure to inform the forum. :winking:

Perhaps the hot, soapy (Ivory, occasionally Murphy's) water I use for a thorough cleaning rinses all the salts away through purely mechanical sloughing with enough rinsing?

The detergent in Murphy's is a surfacant and binds the dissolved salts (it's own and those of burnt powder). I always chase a cleaning with a patch soaked in alcohol to displace any remaining water.

Don't want to throw stones, but I gut rust the day after using a batch of 2003 Lehigh Valley Lube in my T/C as a bore coating after shooting.

I did a two month rust test on bare steel (Olympic 18 ga. CRS) with 15 different compounds. The Murphys did very well wiped on bare steel, hosed, flashed with black powder, and hose again. Then left outdoors under a car-port. Search back to "Lube Wars" from two years ago.

T/C #13 rusted BEFORE tap (well) water did!

 

[bwhoffman]

So...
Does all the above and stumpy's recipe mean we are damaging our guns or is this getting way to scientific?
One would tend to think that if the MOS was causing rust or residue,it would have been posted here long ago.
Personally, I have lubed patched with straight MOS and followed up with a cleaning using hot water and MOS and that went well.
The only rust I ever got was from bore butter.
Until you all put this one to bed, I will go back to the olive oil soak and castor oil wipe after cleaning.

Brett

 

[buckknife]

Deke could you tell us what a good soap would be for doing a water soap flush with the old ramrod?
Baby shampo or a car wash soap?
Ive been using maybe a half ounce of murphys with well water in a plastic coffie can for the flush follwed by maybe 3 minutes of straight water runing threw the barrel.Dry patch and extra virgin olive oil and the bores have no sign of any rust,but i run a patch down em and relube every couple of weeks.If there is a safer soap to use i will surley use it ifen you tell us what would be better. :bow:

 

Again I'm not promoting my product, but stick with what is safe for steel. I have a U.S Patent and I've got 11 years experience of bebunking the " under the sink chemist" Dawn dish liquid and water is sufficient. Just use some thing after that will displace moisture and preserve the steel...some thing proven.[url] http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/mlexperiments/corrosion/corrosion2.html[/url] this may help. there are some good products out there with years of CONTROLLED research behind them. Clorox may work good at cleaning a bore, but do you think it's good for steel? Of course not. Don't let the marketers fool you. Use your common sense. Peroxide in the presence of iron is "Iron Oxide" AKA rust. There are lots of things out there that are "natural" or consumable to humans. But NOT good for steel. I have nothing to lose. I'm a disabled veteran from Afghanistan, Iraq and Panama, My disability check supports my family. I'm bringing honest researh for you to decide on the best method. I love ya all, because I fought for you and wouldn't want to see anyone harmed over bad advice from a novice.. God Bless

Deke could you tell us what a good soap would be for doing a water soap flush with the old ramrod?
Baby shampo or a car wash soap?
Ive been using maybe a half ounce of murphys with well water in a plastic coffie can for the flush follwed by maybe 3 minutes of straight water runing threw the barrel.Dry patch and extra virgin olive oil and the bores have no sign of any rust,but i run a patch down em and relube every couple of weeks.If there is a safer soap to use i will surley use it ifen you tell us what would be better. :bow:

 

Dawn dish liquid is ok with a good flushing. Olive oil is good except it gets a little sticky and attracts dust. dust won't rust the barrel, but if you use it on your lock mechinism it could delat your action over time. I found that out this past weekend at Ft. Ontario. It gets like a sticky thick wax. The reports I got were that the action worked better and faster with a certain patented formula :winking:

Deke could you tell us what a good soap would be for doing a water soap flush with the old ramrod?
Baby shampo or a car wash soap?
Ive been using maybe a half ounce of murphys with well water in a plastic coffie can for the flush follwed by maybe 3 minutes of straight water runing threw the barrel.Dry patch and extra virgin olive oil and the bores have no sign of any rust,but i run a patch down em and relube every couple of weeks.If there is a safer soap to use i will surley use it ifen you tell us what would be better. :bow:

 

I'm assuming the tests were done in a humidity chamber adjusted to 100%? or was it in the ambient air. Some of the test plates looked like different types of steel, possibly with different antimonies. Like the kind from steel plugs from electrical boxes...Please advise.

Murphys is not a detergent, and I don't know in my experience what "binding salts" refers too. What I do know is murphys has a-lot of other chemicals that is harmful to steel. I don't know how controlled your testing is but I'm sure the murphys is acting as a soap independent of the other ingredients. Being so the murphys is not soluble, but miscible in water. Therefore ambient air moisture keeps it and the inert ingredients to attack the steel. As far as the 2003 Lube you bought..You'll have to take that up with Scott Lee from the Old Ox-Yoke. I replaced any of those Ox-Yoke bottles for free as a good faith gesture. Here's a link from an independent lab that tested a variety of commercial lubes.[url] http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/mlexperiments/corrosion/corrosion2.html[/url] :winking:

I was just informed the pH for moose juice, mixed as directed, is 8.2; slightly alkali.

I'm cleaning a $3,000 "natural patina" (unblued) flintlock with it. If I catch a breechplug in the cheek I'll be sure to inform the forum. :winking:

Perhaps the hot, soapy (Ivory, occasionally Murphy's) water I use for a thorough cleaning rinses all the salts away through purely mechanical sloughing with enough rinsing?

The detergent in Murphy's is a surfacant and binds the dissolved salts (it's own and those of burnt powder). I always chase a cleaning with a patch soaked in alcohol to displace any remaining water.

Don't want to throw stones, but I gut rust the day after using a batch of 2003 Lehigh Valley Lube in my T/C as a bore coating after shooting.

I did a two month rust test on bare steel (Olympic 18 ga. CRS) with 15 different compounds. The Murphys did very well wiped on bare steel, hosed, flashed with black powder, and hose again. Then left outdoors under a car-port. Search back to "Lube Wars" from two years ago.

T/C #13 rusted BEFORE tap (well) water did!

 

[Stumpkiller]

No, they were done outdoors, where I use my gun. STP - standard temperature and pressure.

Murphy's MSDS lists the pH as 11.0 Soap is made by treating a fat with an alkali. Whether beef fat and sodium potash as out ancestors did or with pure chemical components. Guess you don't know everything about acids and bases.

ALL soap has some salt. Soft soap (like Murphys) is formed into cakes (like Ivory bar soap) by adding SALT. PS - look up "Detergent" in Websters. "4.) any cleaning agent, including soap." Soap emulsifies and holds matter in suspension. "Binding salt" I referred to is the ions of salts (salt will not bother metal unless it is in suspension - wet or moist). Ions are positively charged and will stick to the most lively molecule available. Whether it's your barrel or bound in solution/suspension.

Lots of acids in black powder and residue, Nitric, sulphuric, etc, etc. What do you get when you neutralize an acid? C'mon Mr. Wizard . . . A Salt? You are correct. Or wasn't that your answer?

I don't feel particularly "debunked". "Under Sink"? I learned some chemistry "under" Professor Beagle and Dr. Spalik when I took Chemisrty 101 and 102 and Organic Chemistry at Broome Technical College. But that was over 25 years ago.

"Bunko" usually refers to someone who tries to sell you something. I offer my information for free. Gonna post the recipe for Lehigh so we can pick that apart? Just what is it you do for a living? I am old enough to harbor some cynicism as to the unbiased philanthropic crusade against "under sink" lubes from a lube salesman.

And several us us here have been trying to get peroxide away from muzzleloaders for many, many years. Same with Clorox. (And rust is Ferric oxide Fe02 ) :winking:

And now another question: "What would your G-G-G-G-G-Grand uncle Kaleb have received if he went to a gunsmith and asked for a "blackpowder solvent".

Answer: a blank stare.

If you couldn't get your own bear fat and saliva you had to borrow someone elses. So hows come we have hundreds of original flintlocks that haven't crumbled into dust & rust?

 

[catman]

Bear fat for hunting and storage & a little light bear spit fat for target, look no farther...

But you got to get the bear to have it...




Bear like Gazed Donuts the best.....

 

[buckknife]

Deke thanks for the soap alternitive.I know there sevral here that use dawn already for clean up.I think one of reasons murphys oil soap is so popular in lubes is it adds additonal slick to most lubes that other soaps dont.I cleaned the 36 up with mr clean orange and water the same way i used the murphys.Its rust free,im not sure whats in it but it worked the same.To most of us soap is soap.I will give the dawn a try next time.

 

Being that the chemicals used have been found back when my G-G-G-G-G Grand uncle. As far as selling I suppose you're not a salesman with your under the sink stumpy's brand..Huh? Our ancestors had the ingredients, they just didn't know how to put them together. The chemicals are cited in my patent FYI. My lube was tested in more adverse conditions than out in your backyard. Your answer for salt won't bother steel unless it is in suspension or moist. Possibly you should have taken a physics class too. Unless you live somewhere that has 0 humidity. Your backyard isn't the same as someone elses in any other state so your testing for your lube at your house is good. But it leaves a-lot of question for the rest of the nation. Another bunk test for stumpys moose meat. What about the caustics in murphys, and again why they don't recommend it for steel. Oh please tell me Dexter about your laboratory experiments on that. As long as you mention "Bunko" a game played with dice...I guess that makes your lube a crap shoot. Test the accuracy of chemicals in a real laboratory and stop trying to figure out things by an MSDS. They are only ranges and guidelines they won't tell you the exact processes, mostly the raw or emulsifiers used. Your webster dictionary is as outdated as your chemistry classes. This updated link might help you understand. [url] http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/detergent[/url] A cleansing substance that acts SIMILARY to soap but is made from chemical compounds rather than fats and lye. Murphys is primarily made from fat. You don't need to neutralize the acids in blackpowder, you just need to penetrate the hygrscopic aspects to get it clean Genius.
Ignorance is Bliss :winking:

No, they were done outdoors, where I use my gun. STP - standard temperature and pressure.

Murphy's MSDS lists the pH as 11.0 Soap is made by treating a fat with an alkali. Whether beef fat and sodium potash as out ancestors did or with pure chemical components. Guess you don't know everything about acids and bases.

ALL soap has some salt. Soft soap (like Murphys) is formed into cakes (like Ivory bar soap) by adding SALT. PS - look up "Detergent" in Websters. "4.) any cleaning agent, including soap." Soap emulsifies and holds matter in suspension. "Binding salt" I referred to is the ions of salts (salt will not bother metal unless it is in suspension - wet or moist). Ions are positively charged and will stick to the most lively molecule available. Whether it's your barrel or bound in solution/suspension.

Lots of acids in black powder and residue, Nitric, sulphuric, etc, etc. What do you get when you neutralize an acid? C'mon Mr. Wizard . . . A Salt? You are correct. Or wasn't that your answer?

I don't feel particularly "debunked". "Under Sink"? I learned some chemistry "under" Professor Beagle and Dr. Spalik when I took Chemisrty 101 and 102 and Organic Chemistry at Broome Technical College. But that was over 25 years ago.

"Bunko" usually refers to someone who tries to sell you something. I offer my information for free. Gonna post the recipe for Lehigh so we can pick that apart? Just what is it you do for a living? I am old enough to harbor some cynicism as to the unbiased philanthropic crusade against "under sink" lubes from a lube salesman.

And several us us here have been trying to get peroxide away from muzzleloaders for many, many years. Same with Clorox. (And rust is Ferric oxide Fe02 ) :winking:

And now another question: "What would your G-G-G-G-G-Grand uncle Kaleb have received if he went to a gunsmith and asked for a "blackpowder solvent".

Answer: a blank stare.

If you couldn't get your own bear fat and saliva you had to borrow someone elses. So hows come we have hundreds of original flintlocks that haven't crumbled into dust & rust?

 

[Lone Carabiner]

Have U ever tryed GO-JO, the mechanics hand cleaner? Doesn't get below zero much here (has hit -20 up on the mountain) bit I have used it when freezing and it works great. When I go shooting I take a tub of it with me. Works good as a qiuck cleaner after shooting also. Has lanolin in it. Don't get the type that has pumice in it, just the regular.

 

[shmrck1]

Stumpy,
Deke may mean well but thank you for Moose
Milk and Moose snot.
snake-eyes :bow: :applause: :hatsoff:

 

[roundball]

:hmm: ...interesting thread...reminds me of a time about a year ago...can't recall the name... :hmm:

 

[Claude Mathis]

Geez, I just read this thread for the first time. There sure is a lot of "science" being thrown around. :grin:

I've used a lot of different lubes, including Stumpkiller's moose milk. Since those lubes are in my barrel for a rather short time and I clean and oil my weapon when finished shooting it, doubt very much if a lot of this really matters to me. If a little detergent or salt shortens the life of my barrel by a few days (over the course of my lifetime), I guess I can live with it. Life's way to short to worry about this to the degree some people do.

I shoot tight groups with Stumpkiller's moose milk. Ignorance may be bliss, but it keeps my blood pressure low too.

Besides, too much science can ruin an otherwise great day of traditional shooting. :winking:

 

[roundball]

Geez, I just read this thread for the first time. There sure is a lot of "science" being thrown around.

Besides, too much science can ruin an otherwise great day of traditional shooting.

Yeah, heck, even Patrick Henry made the now famous quote:
"Give me bore butter or give me death"

 

[Stumpkiller]

I suppose you're not a salesman with your under the sink stumpy's brand..Huh?

Nope. I give away tins and bottles to my friends and post the formula here repeatedly. Make no more money with it than I do volunteering as a moderator here.

Muzzleloading is my relief-from-the-stress-of-work pursuit, not by bread and [bore-]butter. I do so enjoy these relaxing times at the keyboard. :haha:

 

[jan buck]

lets fight nice in the sand box. :winking:

 

I donate to Ft. Ontario for the sales to go towards the restoration of the Fort, and stand there to clean their muskets at a gun cleaning station. Also to the NRA for their shoots. And many other good causes. It's good public relations. I volunteer at my VFW I'm a disabled Veteran wounded in Afghanistan a few years ago, and am trying to give something back to my favorite hobby. Otherwise I could just collect my check, live nicely sit on the front porch and wither in denial. So I manufacture, label, R&D, bottle and ship for a hobby. It covers my company expenses to get the product in hands. It's not a business it's my hobby. The same reason I came to this forum was a hobby of all the R&D I've collected. As long as we both are trying to accomplish the same thing on this forum, "I call a truce". :v

I suppose you're not a salesman with your under the sink stumpy's brand..Huh?

Nope. I give away tins and bottles to my friends and post the formula here repeatedly. Make no more money with it than I do volunteering as a moderator here.

Muzzleloading is my relief-from-the-stress-of-work pursuit, not by bread and [bore-]butter. I do so enjoy these relaxing times at the keyboard. :haha:

 

[Stumpkiller]

Excellent idea. I did take Physics 141 & 142. There we learned about heat and motion. We were getting too much of one an not enough of the other.

I do respect you for being a professional in the field, appreciate your input here and regret that I don't have the resources to test everything properly. Part of the m/l attraction, to me, is casting my own balls, mixing my own lube, assembling my own gear. Though, I admit, I can (and often do) buy better goods from those that are specialists.

My favorite rifle, horn, pouch and knife were all made by pros, though I have spit & twined my own versions of each together because I enjoy doing it. Come to think of it, when I go grouse hunting all my gear is something I have created or assembled myself. :hmm:

Truce. :v

 

Stumpkiller,
That's how I came up with my formula. I thought to myself "there's got to be a better way" Some of it was trial and error and the bulk research with expensive testing. Combustion, flammability, lubricity. At the time I didn't have the equipment so I had to "Farm it out" to other labs. $$$$ so as long as my hobby was going to be really expensive I had to have my hobby float it somehow. If I was going to have to sell my "secret recipe" I was going to set out to make it do everything clean, preserve, lubricate patch lube. I wanted to market it at first for a household product, but I just couldn't I could have made more money. But to be honest with myself and true to my hobby I had to sell it for what my intention was, make "blackpowder shooting more fun, safe, and less labor intensive." But it really pays off like the last to weekends at Ft. Ontario. I ran a gun cleaning station to raise money towards the restoration of Ft. Ontario. It worked Most of the re-enactors never even heard of it. So I bought some cleaning patches, toothbrushs and scotch pads. Some of these guys are using coffee and clorox to clean! :youcrazy:
So I'm starting to educate some of those guys. That's what really makes me love my hobby, and the joy I get when I see someones face light up in amazement along with the appreciation that you gave them a place to train them how to properly clean the firearm along with free supplies. But my company has to pay for that to happen. I'm a disabled Veteran Injured in Afghanistan 3 years ago I couldn't afford that out of my families budget I guess the good spirits today at the Fort made me realize that you are doing this as a voluteer, just like my volunteer to go defend my country. Just like those French, Indians, British did years ago. I thank you for your service of sharing your voluteered time to do the best research you could. :thumbsup: and bring free education to our world. I know you live in upstate NY like me. I think you would like to see some of these re-enactors from all over the country. Stop by the cleaning station and say "Hi" I'd like to meet you. :v
God Bless
Best Regards,
Tom Decare

Excellent idea. I did take Physics 141 & 142. There we learned about heat and motion. We were getting too much of one an not enough of the other.

I do respect you for being a professional in the field, appreciate your input here and regret that I don't have the resources to test everything properly. Part of the m/l attraction, to me, is casting my own balls, mixing my own lube, assembling my own gear. Though, I admit, I can (and often do) buy better goods from those that are specialists.

My favorite rifle, horn, pouch and knife were all made by pros, though I have spit & twined my own versions of each together because I enjoy doing it. Come to think of it, when I go grouse hunting all my gear is something I have created or assembled myself. :hmm:

Truce. :v