Patch Material

[Loyalist Dave]

I don’t think the old timers used a very tight patch. A broken ramrod could mean death in the old days. With a over powder wad, and a thin , easy to load patched ball, my new englander can put them in there. Without the wad, no good!

Hmmm...,

Well I'm not sure if that holds water.

A broken ramrod could = death in combat..., So would they have patched at all?

I mean I've tried an unpatched ball in my rifles, and they will hit a man sized silhouette at 50 yards. Not hunting accuracy, but I would not be needing to track down and eat my adversary..., just get him to stop his attack. Even a thick patch and a smaller ball with a moderate fit in the barrel will get stuck after some shots, and run the risk of snapping a ramrod. You're just as dead when killed after snapping that rod after 8 shots as you are after only 4 shots, right?

A broken ramrod in the woods, when not in combat..., means a sapling is going to get harvested. The results won't be pretty but they will work.
If in the middle of the Great Plains, or in a sparse desert, oh well.

How about lack of accuracy though?
Isn't a lack of accuracy from a proper patch and ball combination likely deadly? You miss or only wound your adversary, and he doesn't miss you? You miss or wound the only animal you've seen in the winter woods in the past month..., are you not dead from starvation soon?

The only times that I've broken a rod was when I was in a hurry, OR the rod was a POJ without straight grain.

I think they loaded for accuracy according to their tastes...meaning they loaded to get the accuracy that satisfied them. I think it varied from shooter to shooter and rifle to rifle. Might be tight compared to me, might be less tight...IF they were in trouble and needed to load fast, I don't think they patched at all.

LD

 

[FishDFly]

I think that’s largely correct. I think they understood a tighter ball/patch combo meant better accuracy and that a rifle with too loose a combo was little better than a Smoothbore. That said, I think they would use the loosest combo that got the job done, and for rabbit, squirrel, and Coons in trees, that wasn’t very tight. For deer in the plains, likely a smidge tighter.

Makes perfect sense to me.

I doubt that folks back then spent a lot of times worrying about things.

 

[Sam squanch]

Has anyone tried accuracy with an original wrought iron barrel and historically correct patch materials? I’m sure there is a original barrel somewhere in decent shape to try this. Or maybe it’s been done already....

 

[FishDFly]

historically correct patch materials?

Please define what it is?

 

[Buck Conner]

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Having manufactured patches years ago for the 1980's Olympics Teams that took place from Moscow to Japan. Most matches entered where events controlled by the men. Alhtough events were mixed, i.e. open to both men and women, all medals were swept by men, and there were only 5 women competing compared to 77 in Los Angeles 1984.

Our patch materials were punched from 100% cotton with having "nap" on one side while the other side was "nap" free. When loading the "nap" was kept to the inside holding the path lube. The reason was when checking the bores it was found there was some nap build up in the breech plug area, when loaded with new patch the problem was gone. According to the Olympic Teams this was a must used patch for that extra edge over the other teams .......

You read of the old timers using what was at hand, animal hides to wore out blanket materials.........
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[smo]

I compress the fabric with the micrometer enough to make it hard too pull the material out of the device..
Walmart ticking Blue stripe I measured at .018 , the Red measured.016.... this was after washing & drying.

 

[Buck Conner]

I compress the fabric with the micrometer enough to make it hard too pull the material out of the device..
Walmart ticking Blue stripe I measured at .018 , the Red measured.016.... this was after washing & drying.

.
These measurments for good quality pillow ticking hasn't changed in 50 years or longer, no matter who selling it/ It's alway fun to watch guys measuring fabric in the area where its sold with our measuring tools..
(woman look at us like we are weird).

.

 

[user 48679]

I've been patching with blue & red stripe pillow ticking from the fabric section of Walmart for a pretty long time Like, 20+ years), with good accuracy & good results on game.

I never bothered with measuring the thickness - but, what do I know ?

 

[Sam squanch]

Historically correct patch material. Cloth made the homemade way, weaved on a hand powered loom. Although I think thin leather was used more often far away from civilization.

 

[Rudall]

Having manufactured patches years ago for the 1980's Olympics Teams that took place from Moscow to Japan.

I don’t understand this. There were no Olympics in Japan in the 1980s, nor were there any shooting events for muzzleloaders.
Could you please explain?

 

[Art Caputo]

How hard do you press on the micrometer when measuring? In the barrel, the patches are going to be compressed, so to know how thick it will be around a loaded ball, you'd need to compress it a similar amount.

Good question. Between the natural compressibility, and possible presence of sizing in the patch material, measurements of thin patches can be tricky. I like to use as heavy a compression as possible using two fingers on my micrometer barrel. I much prefer screw type micrometers(below) over digital for this work. I will tighten down the micrometer without a patch to determine any “lash” that may be present in order to determine actual thickness. Using OxYoke and Maine patches, in sizes of .010”- .018” I have found that they have been quite consistent, and compress .002”-.003” less then the stated size under fairly heavy compression....regardless of lot/age. This thickness range variance does not seem to effect my accuracy or loading pressure. Both my .010” OxYoke and Maine supply cut patches are .0075” when compressed wth no difference In shooting results. Once I get a patch that works well for me I will keep a “standard” patch or two, recording my compressed readings. I will measure these “control” patches to that pre—determined reading and take note of the degree of compression when testing newly acquired patches. This “QC” approach has worked well for me.

 

[Grenadier1758]

How hard do you press on the micrometer when measuring? In the barrel, the patches are going to be compressed, so to know how thick it will be around a loaded ball, you'd need to compress it a similar amount.

There a couple of times when you measure the patch thickness.

In the Fabric store, you have the sizing in the material that will effect the thickness and the compression thickness. Compression can best be determined after the sizing is washed out. Dutch Schoultz and I debate how hard and when to measure all the time. He accuses me of measuring like a machinist who is measuring thickness of steel. While agree, my father who was a tool maker, would have fits if I abused a micrometer by over tightening it. @Art Caputo has a decent approach by using two fingers to tighten the barrel just past the slip thickness to see some compression. When we have a ball that is 0.010" less in ball diameter than the land diameter, there is no way to tighten the material to compress it to 0.005". At that point the ball is getting engraved on the patch and forced into the grooves.

I like to use a patch that compresses using Art's method that is the groove depth plus 0.005". That is what my favorite JoAnn's Fabrics Cotton Drill Cloth (in the utility cloth section) measures for most of my rifles. My Drill Cloth slip thickness is 0.018" and compresses to about 0.015" after washing the sizing out.

 

[sportster73hp]

Dumb question; when buying pillow ticking wash and dry it, do i line dry or machine dry and would it matter?

 

[Grenadier1758]

Line dry or machine dry, doesn't really matter. Machine dry makes the material fluffier but it compresses to the same thickness.

 

[zerosprk]

Hmmm...,

View attachment 59203

Well I'm not sure if that holds water.

A broken ramrod could = death in combat..., So would they have patched at all?

I mean I've tried an unpatched ball in my rifles, and they will hit a man sized silhouette at 50 yards. Not hunting accuracy, but I would not be needing to track down and eat my adversary..., just get him to stop his attack. Even a thick patch and a smaller ball with a moderate fit in the barrel will get stuck after some shots, and run the risk of snapping a ramrod. You're just as dead when killed after snapping that rod after 8 shots as you are after only 4 shots, right?

A broken ramrod in the woods, when not in combat..., means a sapling is going to get harvested. The results won't be pretty but they will work.
If in the middle of the Great Plains, or in a sparse desert, oh well.

How about lack of accuracy though?
Isn't a lack of accuracy from a proper patch and ball combination likely deadly? You miss or only wound your adversary, and he doesn't miss you? You miss or wound the only animal you've seen in the winter woods in the past month..., are you not dead from starvation soon?

The only times that I've broken a rod was when I was in a hurry, OR the rod was a POJ without straight grain.

I think they loaded for accuracy according to their tastes...meaning they loaded to get the accuracy that satisfied them. I think it varied from shooter to shooter and rifle to rifle. Might be tight compared to me, might be less tight...IF they were in trouble and needed to load fast, I don't think they patched at all.

LD

I don't know what I don't know, but this sounds pretty reasonable to me. In an emergency, I can see myself ramming that ball on top of the powder and sending it!

 

[renegadehunter]

I normally use .530 RB's with .018" pillow ticking in my TC Renegade. It is a pretty tight combo in mine, but groups were too much better to ignore vs. .015" cotton patches.
I have tried .535 RB's with: .008" linen, .011" linen, and .014" cotton. The first two thinner patches shot worse than my above .530 RB combo, enough so that I wouldn't switch to them even if they did load easier. They would be fine for hunting to 50 yards though.
The .014" cotton shot as good as my normal .530" combo. It loaded with about the same amount of resistance though, so no real benefit other than I now know what to use if I can't find any .530 RB's if I get low.

 

[bldtrailer]

In all my 6 muzzle loaders all but one (odd ball traditions tenn. .018 pillow tick) like .020 10oz denim(washed 2 times dried in drier on high) w tallow lube w .490 ball (only rod I broke was with .015 pt and a .495 ball in my green mnt barrel very tight)1st getz .50 2nd 3rd green mnt .50

This shows the difference in grouping between .020 denim and .018 pillow tick

 

[Buck Conner]

I don’t understand this. There were no Olympics in Japan in the 1980s, nor were there any shooting events for muzzleloaders.
Could you please explain?

These were held by the United States International Muzzle Loading Team (USIMLT). Ron Long (Long's Locks) was invited as were several other super shots from Colorado and the eastern United States. Can't remember the exact year, but they went to Japan. Long won metals in every event he entered.

Grand Prix De Versailles Trophy Won by USIMLT in 1976 and 1998
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The United States International Muzzle Loading Team (USIMLT) is a non-profit corporation created in 1976 to recruit the best shooters from our country’s muzzle loading community. The members of the U.S. Team are selected through a qualification process to compete in the Muzzle Loading Associations International Confederation (MLAIC) World Championship Events.

World Championships are scheduled every other year and a Zone Championship in the alternate year. Competition is extremely intense, reaching Olympic caliber. Perfect scores are shot occasionally, and new world records set at practically every World Championship event. It is indeed a great achievement to stand on the awards platform among the best black powder marksmen in the world and hear the anthem of one’s country played.

I was presented a USIMLT metal in 1988 for a Regional Championship 25 yd offhand (good enough for regional match but not good enough to move up the ladder). I'll have to look for it and take a picture for you.

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[oldwood]

rrebuck..........There are two nondigital manual mic.s . One measures the fabric "loft " thickness or non compressed fabric thickness , and there is a compression mic. which squeezes the fabric to it's true thickness much like patch material in actual use with a round ball . The published thickness on most bags of material is nearer to the loft thickness. Compression mic. will tell you more closely the true patch thickness. ...................oldwood

 

[Buck Conner]

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In reply to:

Rudall said: I don’t understand this. There were no Olympics in Japan in the 1980s, nor were there any shooting events for muzzleloaders.
Could you please explain?

I found the letter and pin from the United States International Muzzle Loading Team (USIMLT) 1980.

Like said it was a win but no cigar. Today at this point in my life I'm luck to find the front sight no less hit the target.

. ​