Patchbox Dimensions?

[Erzulis boat]

This is the dry run patchbox in some walnut. I need some input on dimensions. I am going to recess the lid, so that I do not have to make a flat on the side of the butt. The butt will curve, with the lid starting below the top surface.

Dimensions are- Length in from buttplate curve are 4.8 or 5 (inches). Width at butt is 1.7". Front curve is 1.25" diameter.

Depth from the buttplate edge is .300" with the shelf at a depth of .125" (at the deepest, to compensate for the curve so that the shelf is still deep enough at the edges, maybe .075").
The dovetail is .175 tall, in the vertical plane.

Are these dimensions legitimate? Or were the old patchboxes done with different dimensions than this?
Of course, the patch cavity is not there, but I just want to be in the ballpark for authenticity.

Thanks-

 

[54JNoll]

Sorry, I do not remember the dimensions I used on my last wooden patch box. Basically I "measured" several lids from pictures of originals. Actually I compared the length and width to the length and width of the stock to get ratios and used those as genral guidlines. Then I converted those to my stock and used them as rough guides (mins and maxes) wherein I drew several styles until I got one I liked on the stock I had. I traced this on wax paper and transfered it to my lid blank. I am not sure I ever really measured though.

 

[Erzulis boat]

I did this too with my length of pull etc.

The length is double the top "finial" on the buttplate, and the width at the back is tad more than a third of buttplate height.

The angle and location are in line with the curvature of the wrist. It looks good to me......but the pictures I see are pretty varied.

My main goal is to be within the PC "window". If it is sitting in a rack at a blackpowder shoot, someone like Rich or Zonie shouldn't spill their pork and beans doing a doubletake! :haha:

Or, God forbid............The Fatdutchman gets wind of it!

 

[DrTimboone]

I have never seen one done like that but I sure like the idea... :thumbsup: . Everyday I see there is so much ore to learn!! I do lik the idea of using he Golden Mean for the dimensions... seems taht will be thebest guarantee of a pleasing appearance...

Can't wait to see the final job.

 

[54JNoll]

Yes, there was in general a lot of variation on length and width. Even placement at the butt varied some but from there I seem to recall that they tip generally pointed along the centerline towards the wrist.

Again there was more variation in some regions than others as well. I would think if you are within the max's and min's for the style gun you are creating than I would say the Historically Correct crowd could not say anything. Or if they did you would be able to show that you are "within bounds".

The wrong butt plate or brass patchbox for the style of gun would be far more glaring of an error. I would think that a well designed patchbox lid that flows well with the contours of the butt and which does not overpower the space would never look wrong.

I have never tried to recess my lid though. I just flattened the area and dovetailed the side and front of the mortice. I then blend everything. Seems to have worked well thus far.

 

[Erzulis boat]

Boy, am I glad that I ask questions!

My size is pretty close to what you have for length (in relation to comb length). So far so good.

My width is wider at the base, but it has a large "early style" buttplate (TOTW).

My angles (inward) are more severe, but flow with the top and bottom of the butt. This aspect has me worried the most, as I have seen a lot of images where the lid looks parallel.

And lastly, (for now) is the cavity size. With what I have, my patch cavity will be 3" long, 15/16" wide, and 3/4" deep. Were they all this small? Seems odd, but in this hobby I get a rude "First Call" about every 15 minutes! :shocked2:

 

[rich pierce]

This is the dry run patchbox in some walnut. I need some input on dimensions. I am going to recess the lid, so that I do not have to make a flat on the side of the butt. The butt will curve, with the lid starting below the top surface.

Dimensions are- Length in from buttplate curve are 4.8 or 5 (inches). Width at butt is 1.7". Front curve is 1.25" diameter.

Depth from the buttplate edge is .300" with the shelf at a depth of .125" (at the deepest, to compensate for the curve so that the shelf is still deep enough at the edges, maybe .075").
The dovetail is .175 tall, in the vertical plane.

Are these dimensions legitimate? Or were the old patchboxes done with different dimensions than this?
Of course, the patch cavity is not there, but I just want to be in the ballpark for authenticity.

Thanks-

OK- I think you're missing something here, something very basic. The tops of the rails of the dovetail ARE the surface of the stock! You've got a square mortise and a dovetail below that on your mock-up.

The cavity below the rails can be nearly as wide as the dovetail- come right close and can parallel the rails. The angle of the rails must be gentle. Even 1/8" wider at the base (butt) than at the nose is plenty of angle to insure it will not stick. If the angle is too severe, the patchbox falls out after moving back 1/2".

 

[Erzulis boat]

I am going to set the lid into the stock, so that the outer profile of the butt remains curved with a pocket.

The lid will have about 1/32" or so perimeter clearance within it's own mortise.

The dovetails are independent, and go on 3 sides below the lid mortise. The front dovetail stops it cold, (the lid) so the gap around the top of the patchbox remains uniform.

The angle is only with the lid, and not the dovetails, they are parallel with a front dovetail. The top of the lid never touches anything on it's perimeter.

Unless of course, this technique is totally out of whack with what was done. That is why I did a dry run.

 

[rich pierce]

Oh. I thought you wanted to know how it's traditionally done. All clear now!

 

[Erzulis boat]

I have been checking back to the computer every 10 minutes!

Okay- It sounds like this technique is a No-Go. (Not traditional at all)

I will do the flat then, it is easier, and allows time to check out the shape and length before finishing the stock.

Thanks again, Rich.

 

[Mike Brooks]

Okay- It sounds like this technique is a No-Go. (Not traditional at all)

Cool idea but not PC at all.
Roughly my boxes are with in these paramiters. 5 1/2 to 6" long. Depends somewhat on pull. 1 1/2" to 1 3/4" wide and tapered maybe 1/8" in it's length.
Box cavity 3 to 3 3/4" long by an inch or a little more wide by 1" deep.

 

[Erzulis boat]

Thanks, Mike!

I like numbers! Gives me an exact idea.

I get a little crazy sometimes, but thank God you folks are keeping me on an even keel!