Patchbox Ideas for Early Tennessee Rifle

[Bob J]

I'm not sure I want to go with a "banana box". :hmm: Being a swamped .54 barrel, I'm trying to figure out what kind of patchbox would be fitting for an early southern mtn/Tennessee Rifle, iron-mounted, of course.

 

[Mike Brooks]

How early?

 

[Bob J]

How early?

How early can you go with a Tennessee-style stock? With a .54 swamped barrel, I figure earler than a "Bean-style" squirrel rifle. Maybe 1790-1810?

 

[Okwaho]

I assume you are talking about the so called classic Tennessee rifle with simple forged iron strap guards,banana boxes and clean functional lines. These guns were made by a number of upper East Tennessee gunsmiths.The origin of the banana box is conjectural but probably derives from South West Virginia rifles.One of the earliest,if not the earliest,banana boxes is on a gun I once owned which was made by a Virginia trained gunsmith who moved into Tennessee about 1784. This particular gun was made about 1810 and he died in either 1810 or 1814. He made an earlier gun with a two piece iron box derived from a school of late 18th-early 19th century Virginia guns.The so called "Bean" rifles are typical of upper East Tennessee guns made by a number of gunsmiths such as the Gross family,the Bulls,Jason Harris, Ambrose Lawing ,and others.It is very difficult to determine the makers of unsigned guns other than by architecture and individual details although many such details were shared by several makers.I once owned a fine upper East Tennessee gun which had almost ALL the so called Bean details but wasn't signed and I now believe the maker to have been Jason Harris of Unicoi County, Tennessee which was carved out of Washington County,home of several of the Bean gunsmiths including the best known,Baxter Bean.I have long thought that many gunsmiths including the Beans bought their iron furniture from local blacksmiths which may explain the uniformity of iron furniture particularly the guards,boxes and butt pieces.

The earliest known Bean, to build guns was George Bean who was also a goldsmith and silversmith as well as a gunsmith and who advertised in a 1792 Knoxville paper of his work in all three areas.He also was a founder in 1798, along with his nephew William Bean the younger, of Bean Station in Grainger County,Tennessee.Unfortunately no signed example of any of his work including guns has been located.His nephew,Baxter son of Russell Bean was born Ca.1790 and could have been at work by 1810. Baxter's brothers,Charles the elder and Robert Bean were probably at work about the same time and were contemporaries of Baxter.

I don't recall ever seing a signed and dated upper East Tennessee rifle but have seen several fake "Beans" In my opinion the guns we think of and consider "Bean type" or better still,"classic upper East Tennessee rifles"date from about the second decade of the 19th century.I am sure there were 18th century guns made in East Tennessee and I owned one made about 1790 and have seen a few more but you asked about the classic East Tennessee or Bean type rifles and I would be extremely hard pressed to recall one of these type rifles made before Ca. 1820-25.Incidentally I have NEVER seen a Tennessee rifle with a Germanic{Siler} lock.Baxter Bean seems to favored Ketland locks and othe makers used both English as well as American locks.of the 19th century.I hope this helps you.
Tom Patton :imo:

 

[Bob J]

Very informative, Okwaho :thanks: And very interesting! Regarding the lock, Roger Sells is using a Jim Chambers "late Ketland" lock. The banana box is earler than I thought, therefore, may be just right for a "turn-of-the-century" Tennessee. Believe they stil might have used a swamped barrel around 1800?

 

[Okwaho]

I still think 1800 is a little too early for the "Bean style" Tennessee rifle.The banana box on the rifle I mentioned was on a purely Virginia rifle made in Tennessee about 1810-1814.The rifle had forged iron work which from about 10 feet looked like blackened brass.It had lower butt and forestock molding and the typical tall butt configuration we see on Virginia rifles.The barrel was about 43-47" and had a slight taper to about 6-8" from the muzzle.If you want to build a really great early Tennessee rifle, check with the Log Cabin Shop for some Southern{mostly Tennessee}scale drawings done by Ron Borron. The Virginia rifle they show is the same Virginia/Tennessee rifle I found in Blount County,Tennessee and mentioned in my earlier post.It would be a great rifle to copy.I found both it and the one with the banana box in the same house in East Tennessee.
Tom Patton

 

[Bob J]

Just curious, what do you think the latest time frame for production of southern mountain rifles with flintlock ignitions was (I've heard maybe 1850s?)?

 

[Packdog]

Great post Tom! Very informative.
PD

 

[Wehrmacht]

Okwaho, you make a valid point when you say that it is probable that several gun makers within an area would have similar trigger guards,buttplates,etc made by a third party. I've heard this from Earl Lanning and Jerry Noble also,and even up in the Pennsylvania region this has caused confusion at times identifying Penn.makers.It stands to reason that a local blacksmith would set up and make any number of implements while he was at it.I would think that even a gun builder might do the same thing and then barter to other makers.

As to period patch boxes you've covered it well in my opinion based on my limited knowledge.Gross and Compton might be an option for the original question,but I know of no others unless one of the Gillespie samples might be used,and these are few and far between.Of course there are examples from other Carolina and Georgia builders,but then these aren't Tennessee rifles.

Perhaps you and I have met before,but if so I don't remember it.Do you attend KRA or CLA functions?

 

[Okwaho]

Thanks to you all for the kind words and I'd like to make a couple of points. As to how late Tennessee gunsmiths were utilizing flintlocks, it seems to me that I once saw illustrated or maybe heard of it but I believe Johnny Clement of Southeast Tennessee made a rifle after the Civil War in flint which was in the Smithsonian{?}This school is referred to as the Soddy Daisy school and old traditions seem to have lasted longer there. They are characterized by elongated rather narrow cheekpieces and forestocks which were diamond in cross section rather than apple shaped.I don't remember any other makers of that school who made flint rifles that late but there may be one or two.

As to the gunsmiths buying iron furniture I have for sometime felt that such was a distinct possibility and in talking to Earl sometime ago he agreed that this was a distinct possibility and I included my theory in a post on the longrifle forum.My old friend,the late Robin C. Hale,was the preminent authority on Tennessee Rifles and it was his thinking also that there were likely men who forged iron furniture for the gunsmith trade in or near the iron production centers in Washington and Unicoi Counties in upper East Tennessee based on the similarities of these iron parts.Incidentally rifles totally or partially mounted in brass were not unheard of in Tennessee rifles.The Kellers of Blount County, Tennessee made fine brass mounted rifles before the Civil War.They used fine lower forestock molding on their guns and so are relatively easy to identify.

der Forster,I may well have met you posibly at a CLA show although I've only been to three of them. I have attended most of Robin Hale's shows in Knoxville and now in Norris, Tennessee.I used to collect Tennessee rifles but frankly the total sameness of them began to bore me.I have always liked extremely early Kentuckys and other guns of the type that Earl likes to say were here from the beginning and that,when you close your eyes, you can smell the Indian campfires.That is why I have been devoting so much time and effort to early French trade level guns of the late 17th and 18th centuries.
Tom Patton :thumbsup: