Patched Conical?

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Little Wattsy

69 Cal.
Joined
Jan 7, 2008
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Ive noticed as I get more praxctice in that the Hornady HPHB is tapered to "start" easily and then turn into a knuckle buster to get all the way into the barrel :grin: and then it goes down VERY easliy....To easily? It shoots GREAT but will it stay seated? Mad Professor said
"If I'm hunting with conicals I lube up the bullet well and use a lube that remains thick for the temperatures encountered. This helps to keep the bullet seated on the powder."
Any opinions on this?
Please and Thanx!
 
I've been using a few loose fitting conicals as of late. They are a loose fit in my barrel even lubed. I've used plumber's Teflon tape with one wrap. The conical goes in lightly snug and stays that way all the way down. Accuracy is not effected.
 
I've used plumber's Teflon tape with one wrap in my 1861 colt rifled musket works great-- :grin:
 
It solves the problem unless you are looking for the additional range and penetration that a conical offers. The bufflo were not nearly hunted to extiction with PBR guns it was the conical shooters with their additional power and range. I'm not saying a PBR gun can't do the job within its range it certainly can. It's just that its range is shorter because of the poor BC of RB. :v
 
I have some 420 gr. Lyman Shocker Bullets in 50 cal.
Just for the heck of it, I cloth patched them and shot them out of my 54 Hawken. I don't recall the patch thickness, but they grouped well and I didn't have any tumblers at 50 yrds. Oh yea! Did a decent job out of the 50 cal. Renegade also :grin:
 
-----I believe the eastern bison were exterminated by the patched round ball----- :cursing:
 
Wattsy said:
Ive noticed as I get more praxctice in that the Hornady HPHB is tapered to "start" easily and then turn into a knuckle buster to get all the way into the barrel :grin: and then it goes down VERY easliy....To easily? It shoots GREAT but will it stay seated? Mad Professor said
"If I'm hunting with conicals I lube up the bullet well and use a lube that remains thick for the temperatures encountered. This helps to keep the bullet seated on the powder."
Any opinions on this?
Please and Thanx!

I made a T-handle for my ramrod from an old broom handle that is countersunk on one end to fit the taper of the conicals I shoot. That gets the bullet nearly flush with the barrel then I use the other flat end to get it flush with the barrel. The T-handle is fitted with the proper size screw in the middle to screw into the ramrod, this hole is also countersunk and the screw secured with a couple of nuts and lock washer.

If this is not clear let me know and I'll try to post a picture.

Concerning wrapping the conical to prevent it from moving you might want to do a search on paper patching, or have a look here: Paper patching conicals
 
I think you should be fine but go ahead and try to patch one with a thin patch and see if it works.
 
Mad Professor said:
Wattsy said:
Ive noticed as I get more praxctice in that the Hornady HPHB is tapered to "start" easily and then turn into a knuckle buster to get all the way into the barrel :grin: and then it goes down VERY easliy....To easily? It shoots GREAT but will it stay seated? Mad Professor said
"If I'm hunting with conicals I lube up the bullet well and use a lube that remains thick for the temperatures encountered. This helps to keep the bullet seated on the powder."
Any opinions on this?
Please and Thanx!

I made a T-handle for my ramrod from an old broom handle that is countersunk on one end to fit the taper of the conicals I shoot. That gets the bullet nearly flush with the barrel then I use the other flat end to get it flush with the barrel. The T-handle is fitted with the proper size screw in the middle to screw into the ramrod, this hole is also countersunk and the screw secured with a couple of nuts and lock washer.

If this is not clear let me know and I'll try to post a picture.

Concerning wrapping the conical to prevent it from moving you might want to do a search on paper patching, or have a look here: Paper patching conicals

:thumbsup: I used to paper patch the big White 460 buck busters with years ago and it worked great. Held the bullet right there on top of the powder and extremely accurate.
 
Eastern Bison probably went down to PRB. Plains Bison went down to the BP cartridge rifles as opposed to muzzle loaders.

:wink: If yer "conical" is loose, just slam the butt of your gun down smartly on the ground and seat it before you shoot.
 
FWIW, Dr. Sam Fadala wrote an interesting article on the Buffalo hunters, and discovered that there was not enough lead and powder taken or sold west of the Mississippi, through Sutler's stores at army posts, where almost all good were shipped, to have killed off the buffalo, No matter what other say. He believes that diseases acquired from cattle lost by settlers during raids, and storms, along the various migration trails, including the Oregon, and Santa Fe trails, are really responsible for the decimation of the buffalo out west. There were not enough train tracks laid across the open prairie to deliver hunters, or receive hides from the hide hunters to make it profitable to hunt the herds to near extinction.

He computed how far a wagon full of hides could be driven in a week, and then mapped out the Railroad lines, and found HUGE areas that just were not commercially reachable by hide hunters so that they could make a profit killing the buffalo there. He also took into account the market prices for Hides during the heyday of the Buffalo hunters. and the costs of bullets, or lead, and powder, and even rifles, as well as flour, beans, and other staples the hunters would need to sustain the hunters and the skinners. When the great buffalo hunts were going on, we knew nothing about bacteria or viruses, and had no way of knowing what diseases that cattle seemed to survive would prove deadly to buffalo , or even which could be transmitted to Buffalo, and how. Evne the diseases that livestock did get were not clearnly understood or named correctly, and their were no vaccines, or antibiotics, or antiviral medicines to give out, even if they were known.

Its too easy to forget the vast leaps in medical sciences that took place in the last 3 quarters of the 20th century. Penecillin was not perfected as an Anti-biotic until 1940, and became a top secret " weapon " that we did not want the Germans to learn about when we entered WWII. Quinine to treat malaria was discovered only in the early 1900s, but understanding what causes malaria, and how to stop its transmission, and the pesticides to do so were not developed until after WWII ended in 1945. Vaccines for Polio, Mumps, Measles, Chicken pox, Small pox, and other lesser diseases that have killed millions of people, ( Including American Indians) are a product of the 1950s, and later research.

Personally, I believe that it is much more likely that both the Buffalo, and the Passenger Pigeon fell victims to diseases, which reduced their numbers to almost extinction in the case of the Buffalo, and to extinction for the pigeon, than the work of all the hunters and shooters who shot them, no matter how many shooters you can imagine. There still are so many bird viruses that Vets have not isolated, or learned how to treat today, that large populations of birds are quickly reduced whenever one of the viruses strikes.

That is the true concern of biologists, about the White and Blue Geese that nest up on the Northern Tundra. The numbers of birds has risen so quickly they are eating and polluting their nesting areas to ruin, and its the pollution that may carry and spread any number of viruses that will wipe the populations out, if we can't do something to reduce the populations some other way.

That is why the hunting seaons on the two species have been extended, as have the bag limits, and why the Fed. regulators have lifted the ban on use mechanical(electronic) callers when hunting these species. I can remember a time, not too long ago, when NO ONE hunted the small White and Blue geese, preferring to hunt the larger Canada geese.

I only comment about this hear, because this myth of the power of the Western Hunter to nearly kill off a species is so widespread, and accepted without question, even by shooters, that someone other than Dr. Fadala has to ask people to stop and think what they are saying. If you believe the estimates of the Northern and Southern herds of Buffalo in the 1820s, there were between 60 and 80 million animals living on the planes. If the number were only half of that, AND all the ammo taken and sold West of the Mississippi was used to only kill buffalo, and no more than one shot was needed per animal, when you consider the birth rates of buffalo, and stretch the hunt over 40 years, you begin to get the idea that even 10,000 hunters all killing 50 buffalo a day could not destroy that herd. The same with the passenger pigeon, which was described as blackening the skies from one horizon to another all day long when they migrated over head. How could you find enough hunters with enough guns, powder and shot, to kill that many millions of birds in a few years? And this is when they used black powder, and cylinder bore guns! Now consider the reproduction rates of pigeons, which have at least 3 hatching a year, with 4-6 chicks, and you get the idea of how vast a problem it is to Kill that many birds. :hmm:

Maybe the American Hunter is not the Beast the Greenies have been describing all along, NO? :thumbsup: :hatsoff:
 
Thanks for that insight, Paul. You do good work.

I have my GGG-Gpas rifle that he used in 1870-71 when he worked for Fort Wallace and the UP Railroad as a buffalo hunter. It is a cartridge rifle.

He wrote in his old letters that he tried to shoot 80 head a day. He was paid $1 a head and he furnished his own rifle and cartridges. He did not do the butchering. I dont think that he worked with many other hunters at that time, probably some but not a lot. It is good to know that my family was not responsible for the ultimate demise of the herds. :wink:
 
FWIW - the earliest concials used regular patching - see Ned Roberts "The Muzzleloading Cap Lock Rifle"

As for the western buffalo - they were being hunted in large quantities long before the conicals came into use. By the mid-1830's thousands (100,000 plus a year) of robes and salted tongues were being shipped back east from such posts as Ft Union, Bent's Fort, and Ft Laramie. In 1846 when George Ruxton traveled the Santa Fe Trail going east he noted that there were no buffalo left within 500 miles of St. Louis.
 
I agree that disease from cattle probably played a role maybe even a large role in their demise but if you have a weakened population and then hunt it with no restrictions, seasons, or bag limits you can and will drive it to extinction by the use of "Modern Technology" which the cartridge rifle is. They were not slaughtered just for hides and tongues. A lot of the "Sports" would shoot them just for the sake of the kill. :hmm:
 
The " Sports road the trains" and shot buffalo from them. Like road hunters, they had no interesting in venturing from sight of the railroad tracks. Their impact on the herds was limited, even if dispicable. Again, look at the numbers. We are talking 35-80 million buffalo, depending on how bloated the estimates of the herds you believe those early numbers are. If I remember correctly, Sam had graduate students even checking bills of lading for buffalo bones, shipped east to be ground up for several different uses, including fertilzier, to see how many buffalo they might be able to account for, assuming that some of these " road kills " were not skinned for their hides, but whose bones could be easily retrieved and sold by the pound. Since elevators, and towns sprang up about ever 6 miles or so, because that represented the distance they could lay track in one day, it was economical for people trying to make a living in these places, to drive a buckboard, or wagon along the tracks and pick up the bones, to sell. Sam took into account all these observations, and his research with his students did a very thorough job of accounting for all sources of lead, powder, and fixed ammo. His surprise conclusion, and one which surprised his Grad Students, was that the numbers didn't even come close. I doubt there were 1,000 buffalo hunters, much less 10,000 such people working the herds at any time during that 40 year period. It was very hard work, and any profit depended on how much eastern merchants, and dealers in Europe were willing to pay for buffalo robes. Winter robes brought a premium because of the thicker, longer fur.
 
Mad Professor said:
Wattsy said:
Ive noticed as I get more praxctice in that the Hornady HPHB is tapered to "start" easily and then turn into a knuckle buster to get all the way into the barrel :grin: and then it goes down VERY easliy....To easily? It shoots GREAT but will it stay seated? Mad Professor said
"If I'm hunting with conicals I lube up the bullet well and use a lube that remains thick for the temperatures encountered. This helps to keep the bullet seated on the powder."
Any opinions on this?
Please and Thanx!

I made a T-handle for my ramrod from an old broom handle that is countersunk on one end to fit the taper of the conicals I shoot. That gets the bullet nearly flush with the barrel then I use the other flat end to get it flush with the barrel. The T-handle is fitted with the proper size screw in the middle to screw into the ramrod, this hole is also countersunk and the screw secured with a couple of nuts and lock washer.

If this is not clear let me know and I'll try to post a picture.

Concerning wrapping the conical to prevent it from moving you might want to do a search on paper patching, or have a look here: Paper patching conicals


MP A) GREAT article!! THANK YOU!!
B) I WOULD like to see a a picture of your broom handle tool. Please and thank you.
 
:thumbsup: I used to paper patch the big White 460 buck busters with years ago and it worked great. Held the bullet right there on top of the powder and extremely accurate.[/quote]


What kind of paper should I use and am I overthinkg this or would a little newspaper work I wanna try the teflon tape too and I guess a pretty thin patch .010? and Cut to fit in/at the barrel?
 
"Any opinions on this?"

Yeah, but I will keep them to myself this time.
 
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