GOEX vs. Swiss

[Idaholewis]

Not your top shooters and not the Long distance shooters. At the Oak Ridge LR Muzzloader shoot in 2017 seventeen out of twenty of the top shooters were shooting Swiss.

Good Post! There’s a reason they use Swiss, It Wins Look up BPCR Mid, and Long Range Score cards that show their load Data, One thing you will find that Most all of them have in common, The Powder they Shoot, You will never guess what it is? If Goex was winning, Believe me these World Class Shooters would be using it!!

 

[Rifleman1776]

I'm not doubting Swiss is hotter and gives higher pressures. I just doubt the use of Swiss was why those guys won. I'll be using Swiss for my initial load development in my new flinter.

 

[rodwha]

Means nothing. One club, one event several years ago. Could just have been because that was the only product available from suppliers at the time.

I’ve never heard of competition shooters just switching powders.

 

[Semisane]

Perhaps. But in my .54 rifles I saw a substantial difference in bullet drop between Goex and Swiss FF. Less so with FFF. The .54 Hawken below had been sighted in using Swiss and dropped at least 8" with Goex. ….

Interesting Tom A Hawk. Were you shooting the same volume load of each? Do you recall what the volume was?

 

[Idaholewis]

I'm not doubting Swiss is hotter and gives higher pressures. I just doubt the use of Swiss was why those guys won. I'll be using Swiss for my initial load development in my new flinter.

When you speak to a Few “World Champion” Shooters Such as Dave Gullo, and Lee Shavers (Lee Shaver’s is a 2 Time World Champion) And they tell you that they DONT get the accuracy from Goex, Goex Olde E That they do with Swiss, They have Tried it, it Didn’t Perform nowhere near as well for them. What else needs to be Said? If Goex was that Great, BELIEVE me these BIG BOYS would be using it! Most have tried it, it Failed to give Accuracy of Swiss, They Ditched it and Have stayed with Swiss

I have 1 experience with Goex Olde E and it was NO GOOD for me. I wanted to compare it to Swiss 2F, i Weighed The Charges on a Beam Scale to the 10th of a Grain, The Rifle, and load i chose was VERY proven with 80 Grains of Swiss 2F Powder, Bullet inside of Bullet holes as long as i did my Part, Again this Proven load used 80 Weight Grains of Swiss 2F Powder, So for the Olde E 2F test i chose 80 Weight Grains as well.

I sat down at my Bench and Shot 3 Shots of Goex Olde E (my intentions were a 5 Shot Group) But after 3 Shots i Could CLEARLY See that the Goex Olde E load was NOT working! Remember, this same Rifle, Bullet, Wool Wad Combo With 80 Grains of Swiss 2F will Shoot 1/2” or Better! After seeing how HORRIBLE the Olde E 2F 3 shots had just Done, I loaded up with 80 Grains of Swiss 2F to make my last 2 Shots, Those 2 Shots went Through eachother, as they have MANY MANY times before with this Same Load. I plan to Experiment a Little bit more with this Can of Goex Olde E 2F when the Weather Gets Better, But my first impression was NOT good, And mirrored what a Few “World Class” Shooters Told me They Experienced with it

 

[Semisane]

DANG IT Lew,

 

[Idaholewis]

DANG IT Lew,

LOL! Semi, If I remember right it was 70 Yards, Same place most of my Shooting Videos are from. This particular Pit i shoot at is tough to get much past 80 Yards, it puts you out Close to a Gravel Rd edge, Then you have to deal with Dust from vehicles going by. I had this on Video But it was boring, and not worth the time to Download it.

Like i said, I FULLY intend to do more testing with this Can of Goex Olde E 2F, 1 outing, and 1 load is not enough to Rule it out, But i was definitely shocked at the Difference here, A 3-4” Group is what I consider HORRIBLE. As most of you guy’s that know me, Know that I mainly shoot for accuracy. One of the Main reasons i tested this was after Seeing 52bores Results with Goex Olde E, I wanted to see if my results would be the Same? I really wanted the Goex Olde E to work, i would MUCH rather save the extra 6-7 dollars a pound and Support an American Company, But my first Goex Olde E outing sure didn’t look good. I will know MUCH more when Spring Gets here, My Little Sandpit has a Good 4ft of Snow right now

 

[Tom A Hawk]

Interesting Tom A Hawk. Were you shooting the same volume load of each? Do you recall what the volume was?

My standard hunting load with this gun is 125 grains. The rear sight has an elevation bar. With Goex I always had to raise it up one notch when changing from 50 to 100 yards. With Swiss there is no need to adjust. The Hawken is 20 years old and I had always been happy with the accuracy using Goex. I can break clay pigeons at 100. But the Swiss is just as accurate and it shoots flatter.

 

[cannonball1]

I guess I'm arguing one side and now to argue for the other. Even though I am sure Swiss is more consistent I believe you would have to be one of the top 5 percent accuracy shooters to see a different unless it was from a dead rest and maybe not then. I am certainly not even the top 20 percent, but I still use what the big guys use - Swiss. No extensive testing, just what I read from many sources and the offhand shooting of the two different powders.

 

[hanshi]

Since competition is not my thing I shoot whatever powder gives decent results and costs less. Swiss is much too rich for me to buy, but OE wouldn't necessarily be. My shooting no longer allows me to be able to see a difference much beyond 50-60 yards. 4" at 100 yds is great shooting for me; and only on my best days. Swiss or OE would be my choice for maximum performance in c&b revolvers.

 

[fleener]

I am a long range ML shooter and I do shoot swiss and have for years. There is a reason that most of us use swiss and it is not because it cost more. The powder we use is just one variable in the shooting. Barrel, bullet design, wads, bullet hardness, powder, physical condition, mental management all play into how well you shoot. Oh and dont forget being able to read the conditions and being able to change your sight settings. All these things will have an impact on your scores.

I have had friends try to switch back to Goex to save some money, but they end up simply going back to Swiss.

I have placed in the top 3 in quite a few matches at Oak Ridge, Friendship, and at 3 World Long Range matches shooting on the USA team. I have 3 National records and one World record at 900 yards shooting swiss powder. I also hold the record at Oakridge for the most X's in the aggregate with 13. Now that does not mean you can not have success shooting Goex or other powders. Like I said, it is just one variable.

Fleener

 

[smo]

Yes, 100. I was shocked.

Thanks , How much was your powder charge? You did say it was a bullet? Weight?

 

[Idaholewis]

I am a long range ML shooter and I do shoot swiss and have for years. There is a reason that most of us use swiss and it is not because it cost more. The powder we use is just one variable in the shooting. Barrel, bullet design, wads, bullet hardness, powder, physical condition, mental management all play into how well you shoot. Oh and dont forget being able to read the conditions and being able to change your sight settings. All these things will have an impact on your scores.

I have had friends try to switch back to Goex to save some money, but they end up simply going back to Swiss.

I have placed in the top 3 in quite a few matches at Oak Ridge, Friendship, and at 3 World Long Range matches shooting on the USA team. I have 3 National records and one World record at 900 yards shooting swiss powder. I also hold the record at Oakridge for the most X's in the aggregate with 13. Now that does not mean you can not have success shooting Goex or other powders. Like I said, it is just one variable.

Fleener

Good Post Fleener! And Awesome achievements!!! Simple Question, I am confident I know the answer, But i am asking for the Sake of this thread. Do you feel you could have accomplished the same things you state above if you had used Goex?

 

[Idaholewis]

I have had friends try to switch back to Goex to save some money, but they end up simply going back to Swiss.

I was told this EXACT same thing from the Co. i bought the Goex Olde E from. In fact i was told this from my very beginning in Muzzleloading. I was also told that i “might not” see much difference out to 100 yards between Goex and Swiss? But Since accuracy was, and is my Number 1 priority in this Sport, and i planned to Stretch out as far as I possibly could, I Chose to use Swiss powder from my very beginning, and i have shot it Exclusively in all of my Rifles from my Beginning.

Fact is, and this is in NO WAY intended to sound arrogant, or down anyone’s ability, or lack there of. But Not everyone is capable of Shooting Bullet holes through bullet holes, Not everyone has Rifles that are Capable of shooting Bullet Holes Through Bullet holes, Not everyone has Sight Setups on their Rifles that would help them achieve this. As Fleener stated above, there are MANY variables in bringing it all together, Powder is 1 of them. And as i stated above, Look up Long Range BPCR Score Cards that Shows Their Load Data, These guy’s Could Obviously shoot ANY powder they wanted to, and at the level of competition they are in, Don’t you think they are gonna shoot the most accurate powder they can get their hands on? OF COURSE they are!! Do you not think they have Tried/Tested the other brands of Powder on their way to the Top? Of course they have! Fact is, You will find the VAST Majority of Top shooters in this Sport are Shooting Swiss Powder. Think about it, If Goex was as good, or better, you would see a LOT more of it being used by these Guy’s, Who wouldn’t want to save a few extra dollars if there Truly was no difference in Accuracy of these Powders??

I hear Folks complain about the Price of Swiss Powder, I Personally feel it is the Cheapest part of the Sport for me, When i take in to account how much i have in My Rifles, My sight setups, my Bullet Molds, etc.

I have said it before, and will say it again, Shoot whatever Powder you like! If you are getting Results that make YOU feel good, that is ALL that matters!! But if you feel you, and your Rifle are Capable of shooting better, But just can’t seem to get there no matter how hard you try with your current Powder? Try a Can of Swiss Powder, What’s an extra 6-8 Dollars to Try it?

The type of Bullet you use for your Twist Rate, The Quality of Barrel, If you are a Caster, your attention to Detail (especially the Bullet Bases) The type of Over Powder Wad used, The Lube you use, ALL of these things come in to play and are VERY important in getting the Most out of your Rifle.

 

[Tom A Hawk]

Thanks , How much was your powder charge? You did say it was a bullet? Weight?

.54 RB over 125 grains of powder.

 

[smo]

Wow! Thats a big difference Thanks

 

[fleener]

I think the swiss powder is just one component in the overall shooting success. IMO the first thing you have to have is a rifle and a load that shoots better than you do. You dont want to shoot better than your rifle does. You can be the best shooter in the world, but if the rifle cant shoot well, you are stuck.

I am a hunter, plinker and target shooter. My goals are a little different for each kind of shooting. On my farm I have around 20 hanging steel targets at various yardages in a dedicated shooting range. I have some rifles that are simply for shooting the hanging targets. They are not capable of shooting MOA groups, but they are capable of shooting MOA prairie dog or crow, and I dont think the kind of powder I shoot in them will make much difference.

I like the fact that Goex and OE is produced here in the USA. I have also met the Hodgdon's and I like them. I think they are very good people.

Fleener

 

[Kansas Jake]

Idaholewis, I like your post on capabilities of shooters. I for one have accepted I am now one of those who can't shoot one hole targets. I may have been closer to that ability 40 years ago, but now longer am not able to even come close for a number of reasons. I appreciate your frank way of stating it without seeming to brag.

 

[Tom A Hawk]

I was told this EXACT same thing from the Co. i bought the Goex Olde E from. In fact i was told this from my very beginning in Muzzleloading. I was also told that i “might not” see much difference out to 100 yards between Goex and Swiss? But Since accuracy was, and is my Number 1 priority in this Sport, and i planned to Stretch out as far as I possibly could, I Chose to use Swiss powder from my very beginning, and i have shot it Exclusively in all of my Rifles from my Beginning.

Fact is, and this is in NO WAY intended to sound arrogant, or down anyone’s ability, or lack there of. But Not everyone is capable of Shooting Bullet holes through bullet holes, Not everyone has Rifles that are Capable of shooting Bullet Holes Through Bullet holes, Not everyone has Sight Setups on their Rifles that would help them achieve this. As Fleener stated above, there are MANY variables in bringing it all together, Powder is 1 of them. And as i stated above, Look up Long Range BPCR Score Cards that Shows Their Load Data, These guy’s Could Obviously shoot ANY powder they wanted to, and at the level of competition they are in, Don’t you think they are gonna shoot the most accurate powder they can get their hands on? OF COURSE they are!! Do you not think they have Tried/Tested the other brands of Powder on their way to the Top? Of course they have! Fact is, You will find the VAST Majority of Top shooters in this Sport are Shooting Swiss Powder. Think about it, If Goex was as good, or better, you would see a LOT more of it being used by these Guy’s, Who wouldn’t want to save a few extra dollars if there Truly was no difference in Accuracy of these Powders??

I hear Folks complain about the Price of Swiss Powder, I Personally feel it is the Cheapest part of the Sport for me, When i take in to account how much i have in My Rifles, My sight setups, my Bullet Molds, etc.

I have said it before, and will say it again, Shoot whatever Powder you like! If you are getting Results that make YOU feel good, that is ALL that matters!! But if you feel you, and your Rifle are Capable of shooting better, But just can’t seem to get there no matter how hard you try with your current Powder? Try a Can of Swiss Powder, What’s an extra 6-8 Dollars to Try it?

The type of Bullet you use for your Twist Rate, The Quality of Barrel, If you are a Caster, your attention to Detail (especially the Bullet Bases) The type of Over Powder Wad used, The Lube you use, ALL of these things come in to play and are VERY important in getting the Most out of your Rifle.

Just curious - Are you shooting paper patch and false muzzle?

 

[Idaholewis]

Just curious - Are you shooting paper patch and false muzzle?

I shoot a LOT of Paper Patch, In fact it is what got me interested in this Hobby and how i started. I have Many Custom PP Bullet molds i had made for .45, 50, and .54 Cal, I really enjoy shooting my PP Bullets from a Shooting bench at Targets, For hunting i MUCH prefer my Grease Groove Bullets (a tighter fitting bullet that I don’t have to worry about slipping off the Powder Charge) I actually shoot more Grease Groove bullets on Target now days than i do my Paper Patch, I get every bit as good, and even better accuracy in many cases with my Grease Groove bullets. When you get a PP load dialed in they can be really accurate, But not more so than a Good Grease Groove Bullet (Depends on rifle of course) I Find Paper Patch Bullets to be more finicky, Require More Tinkering to get them Dialed in. If you enjoy tinkering, Paper Patch is a lot of fun