Patched Conicals?

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Perhaps a stupid question: can conicals be patched like round ball & shot effectively? I'm thinking of something along the lines of the PA conical. If I get a mould made to a roundball diameter, like .440, and then patch it when loading, would it still shoot well?

Long story short, while it seems like an off-the-wall question, it's a legit one. I'm continuing my experiment in casting .45 conicals with the Rotometals Bi alloy (CA hunting rules). The Lee REAL bullet and that alloy aren't a good combo for this rifle. The alloy chips while loading in the bore & needs a mallet on the short starter to actually get it in (not something I can do in the backcountry). I may see about adding more tin to reduce the expansion during cooling and increase the malleability. But it would certainly be easier to just make a reduced-diameter bullet & then patch it.
 
I tried it ages ago with a tc 50 and 370 grain maxi ball. I used thin t shirt material. My objective was to have a tighter fit and prevent the possibility of the maxi moving in the bore. It was a success all around. 8t stayed put and accuracy was good. I never went any further with it because I decided that a ball would work fine for the hunt.
 
My buddy did something similar using a 44 mag bullet in a 45 caliber rifle using blue jean material for a patch. He could kill deer with it. But its almost like using a sabot to me. Just no plastic fouling. Give it a shot either it works for ya or doesn't
That's kinda what I'm working on. I ordered some .430 copper hollow points on a whim since it's the closest I can find in an undersized bullet for my .45. It might need a very thick denim patch or even a couple thinner patches to fill out the grooves. But we'll see. Sabots are an option. But I'd prefer something closer to full bore. And there's little info on how sabot-clad .40s work with anything but fast twists.
 
If the conical has a hollow base, the base will expand into the rifling upon ignition. Wrapping a hollow base conical may not do a lot as the conical itself will seal against the rifling. If the base's are flat, that's another story.
 
If the conical has a hollow base, the base will expand into the rifling upon ignition. Wrapping a hollow base conical may not do a lot as the conical itself will seal against the rifling. If the base's are flat, that's another story.
If a hollow base conical needs paper patching to fit the bore correctly, there's no way it would expand that much without the patching and retain any accuracy.
 
Perhaps a stupid question: can conicals be patched like round ball & shot effectively? I'm thinking of something along the lines of the PA conical. If I get a mould made to a roundball diameter, like .440, and then patch it when loading, would it still shoot well?
You can do that with an easy way and another: cross-patching or paper patching. Personally, I prefer the paper patching to the cross patching. The only small detail for paper patching in muzzleloader is to think about the sense of the twist: you have to turn inverse than for a breech-loader, that's all...
I roll the paper (Japan thickness .05 mm) twice and let it dry for two days...
Cross-patching.png
Calepins papier.jpg
 
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Paper patching would be an entirely different strategy that would also require a bullet much closer to bore diameter, correct? My barrel slugged at 0.465". The idea I'm kicking around is using a slightly undersized conical bullet -- like a .440. That would require about 3 0.008" paper wraps. Is that a viable? How much thickness can paper patching take up?

Also, these bullets are going to be rock hard, not soft lead or even hardcast lead. It's a bismuth/tin/antimony alloy. They won't obturate. So hollow base is out. The low melting point is also an issue for hollow base. It's not so hard that the rifling can't engrave on the bullets but the bullets will crack & chip if they're even 0.003" over bore diameter. I cast up some Lee REAL 200s (weighing about 169 grains with the alloy) and they can't be loaded without a mallet. The top ring chips once seated in the muzzle. So now I'm kicking around the idea of just treating it like a .440 round ball with a cloth patch -- getting a .440 diameter conical mould and shooting them just like a patched ball.

I've used the alloy successfully with roundball. It shoots great & I get lots of punch from them with deer in my .50. But I'd like a conical bullet for the .45. A 109 grain .440 round ball isn't something that I feel confident in using to take a deer beyond about 50 yards.
 
My barrel slugged at 0.465". The idea I'm kicking around is using a slightly undersized conical bullet -- like a .440. That would require about 3 0.008" paper wraps. Is that a viable? How much thickness can paper patching take up?
Why not throw caution to the wind and start with a .458” diameter conical? Might require two sizing dies (or an adjustable one), but would he pretty easy to paper patch, only requiring two wraps, something I do all the time. And there are a number of non-lead .458” conicals available.
 
Why not throw caution to the wind and start with a .458” diameter conical? Might require two sizing dies (or an adjustable one), but would he pretty easy to paper patch, only requiring two wraps, something I do all the time. And there are a number of non-lead .458” conicals available.
That just may work. But since I'd have to secure a press and dies, I'd like to try simpler, as-cast options first. But, to be sure, it's a good idea and one I hadn't thought of.
 
@Nuthatch.
Don't forget: your paper in two wraps will make four times its thickness, so you can play with the size of the mold, the thickness of the paper, and all the different sizing dies available on the market. In the case you can't find the right sizer, you can get one made by any guy with a lathe...
 
That just may work. But since I'd have to secure a press and dies, I'd like to try simpler, as-cast options first. But, to be sure, it's a good idea and one I hadn't thought of.
Considered the as-cast option when I first put a toe in the paper patch pond, but quickly realized it wasn’t going to work for me, as I found the Goldilocks zone diameter to be no more than .001” total.

For another option, you could look at a custom mold for your particular alloy (maybe contact Accurate Mold for example), but even then, finished as cast size is estimated through a calculation and ultimately sizing may still be required, as different alloys are not as forgiving when loading as lead.
 
Considered the as-cast option when I first put a toe in the paper patch pond, but quickly realized it wasn’t going to work for me, as I found the Goldilocks zone diameter to be no more than .001” total.

For another option, you could look at a custom mold for your particular alloy (maybe contact Accurate Mold for example), but even then, finished as cast size is estimated through a calculation and ultimately sizing may still be required, as different alloys are not as forgiving when loading as lead.
The custom mould is already on the table. And I may get there. The bismuth alloy is very unforgiving. Cast REALs that are 0.003" over groove diameter need a mallet on the back of the short starter to seat. And they chip. To make it more challenging, the alloy expands up to about 0.003" upon cooling.
 
Hey Nuthatch,
Spent a little time this evening pondering on how to make hard cast muzzle loaded bullets accurate. Came up with nothing to recommend. If it will load down the bore it is by definition too small so it needs to be expanded. The best I came up with is a variation on shooting hard ball in a .69 bore rifled musket. With a patched ball I got terrible accuracy until trying hard cast ball, cloth patched and with a shotgun fiber wad behind it. My suspicion came to be that the fiber wad actually engaged the rifling and transferred spin to the patched ball. So I got to thinking that perhaps if you had a bore diameter projectile and used the buffer behind the bullet to prevent gas cutting then it could also transfer spin to your bullet. But alas, trying to produce bullets of such precise diameter with such a hard alloy is going to be a real booger.
 
The bismuth alloy is very unforgiving. Cast REALs that are 0.003" over groove diameter need a mallet on the back of the short starter to seat. And they chip.
Of course the REALs cast from bismuth are oversized, the regular standard REAL molds are designed for lead, not an alloy that ends up a larger size than lead (expansion coefficient is different). Maybe tell your custom mold maker that you are using bismuth and they will make you a custom mold that will cast bismuth the size you think you need, at least in theory.

I do have a question for you though, the smaller diameter bottom rings of the lead REAL bullet are designed to upset (enlarge under pressure and fill the bore) when fired. Are you sure the bismuth will expand similarly?
 
Makes me wonder if a banded ball in a two-groove barrel might become the thing to do in Noleadland. But then you'd still be stuck with relatively light weight boolits due to the lower density of the alloy. This is a tough nut to crack.
 


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