Patched Conicals?

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Nuthatch, while I have no idea as to the distances involved or make and model of your piece...
Have you considered that if this is to be used as a hunting gun then perhaps a smooth rifle of larger bore diameter could be a better mousetrap?
 
I would be looking for a different alloy that's a bit softer.

Modern pewter is lead-free. I would have to melt some down and do some experimentation to see its loading characteristics. I do believe it would be softer than the bismuth, and much easier to cast than copper. Not sure of the density of pewter vs bismuth.
 
Historically, cloth patched conicals were a thing back circa 1850’s. If your bore diameter is .465, you’d be looking at a .445 diameter conical with a .020 patch, with the patch compressed by half after loading.

How this works with your hard bismuth alloy I don’t know.
 
Perhaps a stupid question: can conicals be patched like round ball & shot effectively? I'm thinking of something along the lines of the PA conical. If I get a mould made to a roundball diameter, like .440, and then patch it when loading, would it still shoot well?

Long story short, while it seems like an off-the-wall question, it's a legit one. I'm continuing my experiment in casting .45 conicals with the Rotometals Bi alloy (CA hunting rules). The Lee REAL bullet and that alloy aren't a good combo for this rifle. The alloy chips while loading in the bore & needs a mallet on the short starter to actually get it in (not something I can do in the backcountry). I may see about adding more tin to reduce the expansion during cooling and increase the malleability. But it would certainly be easier to just make a reduced-diameter bullet & then patch it.

The answer is YES. They were/are used to shoot 220 yard matches.

Whether or not the rifle(s) that you have can take advantage of doing a paper or linen patch is another question.

SEE:

The Muzzle-Loading Cap Lock Rifle by Ned Roberts

LD
 
The British achieved the apex of military muzzleloading ammunition with the invention of the ammunition for the Enfield family of muskets. Started with the Pattern 1851, and refined with the Pattern 1853, the cartridge featured a integrated paper-patched bullet. The bullet was made from pure lead and smooth-sided.

The first bullet, the "Pritchett" bullet, had a small cavity in the base. This was not so much for expansion as a place to fold the paper for the bottom of the cartridge, and possibly to shift the center of gravity slightly forward. The Pritchett bullet obdurated by compression more than expansion.

It was discovered that the .568" diameter Pritchett bullet (before paper) was difficult to load with service ammunition on fouled bores. Worse, if the bullets were sized at their minimum tolerance (.566) and musket bores were at their maximum tolerance, the Pritchett design could not expand enough to take up the rifling. This was a disaster that almost ended the P1853 musket.

The solution was the Hay bullet, which was still .568" in diameter (before paper), but now had deep internal cavity into which a hemispherical iron cup was placed. This was soon discarded for a truncated cone iron cup, which was almost immediately replaced by a truncated wooden plug made from Boxwood.

These bullets still proved difficult to load in the field on fouled guns with service ammunition that had been shipped by sea and overland by wagon in extreme weather conditions.

The final iteration came with an extreme solution brought forth by Boxer (the same Boxer who gave us Boxer primers). He reduced the size of the bullet to .550"! Despite fears that such a massively undersized bullet would not be accurate, or even fall out of the barrel, it turned out to be at least as accurate as the previous Hay bullet.

Final tweaks to the design included changing the wooden plug to a fired clay plug, and changing the lubricant (anti-fouling agent, really) from a mixture of tallow and beeswax to pure beeswax. It was found that the acids in the tallow oxidized the lead bullet, causing to increase slightly in size.

Here is a video that talks about the 3 bullet variants:
 
Nuthatch, while I have no idea as to the distances involved or make and model of your piece...
Have you considered that if this is to be used as a hunting gun then perhaps a smooth rifle of larger bore diameter could be a better mousetrap?
I have larger bore rifles. I'm trying to make this .45 work. At just over 5 lb, it would save me a lot of weight on backcountry hunts.
 
I would be looking for a different alloy that's a bit softer.

Modern pewter is lead-free. I would have to melt some down and do some experimentation to see its loading characteristics. I do believe it would be softer than the bismuth, and much easier to cast than copper. Not sure of the density of pewter vs bismuth.
I was at the hardware store last night and picked up a tin-based lead-free electrical solder & cast a couple with it -- just to see what happened. I wasn't too careful about it and just melted it with a blowtorch in the ladle. Surprisingly, it cast beautifully. It looked like it was CNC machined. It had a bit of give to it when I smacked one with a hammer on the anvil -- compressing just a little. It reminded me of hardcast lead in that regard. But I still needed a mallet on the back of the short starter to get it down the bore. Weighed in at 129 grains. It would have been a very expensive solution anyway.
 
Perhaps a stupid question: can conicals be patched like round ball & shot effectively? I'm thinking of something along the lines of the PA conical. If I get a mould made to a roundball diameter, like .440, and then patch it when loading, would it still shoot well?

Long story short, while it seems like an off-the-wall question, it's a legit one. I'm continuing my experiment in casting .45 conicals with the Rotometals Bi alloy (CA hunting rules). The Lee REAL bullet and that alloy aren't a good combo for this rifle. The alloy chips while loading in the bore & needs a mallet on the short starter to actually get it in (not something I can do in the backcountry). I may see about adding more tin to reduce the expansion during cooling and increase the malleability. But it would certainly be easier to just make a reduced-diameter bullet & then patch it.
I shot 550 grain 50 caliber patched bullets out of my Pedersoli Missouri River Hawken. The fast twist (1/24) worked fabulous with conicals. Round balls - so,so. Max charge was 50 grains.
 
Hey Nuthatch,
Spent a little time this evening pondering on how to make hard cast muzzle loaded bullets accurate. Came up with nothing to recommend. If it will load down the bore it is by definition too small so it needs to be expanded. The best I came up with is a variation on shooting hard ball in a .69 bore rifled musket. With a patched ball I got terrible accuracy until trying hard cast ball, cloth patched and with a shotgun fiber wad behind it. My suspicion came to be that the fiber wad actually engaged the rifling and transferred spin to the patched ball. So I got to thinking that perhaps if you had a bore diameter projectile and used the buffer behind the bullet to prevent gas cutting then it could also transfer spin to your bullet. But alas, trying to produce bullets of such precise diameter with such a hard alloy is going to be a real booger.
Well, thanks for your brain power all the same. It's a conundrum, for sure. I'm pretty sure I could get a custom mould made at or just under bore -- enough to engrave the rifling but not so much that it can fully seal. Then, yes, it's an issue of wadding. But that's getting awfully close to "Aw, F-it" solution where I pick up some plastic whizbangs with .40 copper handgun bullets. In fact, I already ordered some. But I still want to look for something closer to a full-bore conical. Funny how a "good deal" on a rifle can turn into a money pit... At least it's fun to try things out.
 
If the conical has a hollow base, the base will expand into the rifling upon ignition. Wrapping a hollow base conical may not do a lot as the conical itself will seal against the rifling. If the base's are flat, that's another story.
It will not seal or expand even 0.001". Zero obturation. I'm not dealing with lead or any of its alloys for this project.
 
Of course the REALs cast from bismuth are oversized, the regular standard REAL molds are designed for lead, not an alloy that ends up a larger size than lead (expansion coefficient is different). Maybe tell your custom mold maker that you are using bismuth and they will make you a custom mold that will cast bismuth the size you think you need, at least in theory.

I do have a question for you though, the smaller diameter bottom rings of the lead REAL bullet are designed to upset (enlarge under pressure and fill the bore) when fired. Are you sure the bismuth will expand similarly?
I'm very sure that they will not expand.

The first band, near the base, is scratched by the rifling. The second band needs a mallet on the short starter to get past but is still not to bore diameter yet (lands are scratching but grooves aren't). The third (top) requires a pretty good whack and shows the grooves engraving on the bullet. But the lands chip off tiny pieces of the bullet once seated.
 
Makes me wonder if a banded ball in a two-groove barrel might become the thing to do in Noleadland. But then you'd still be stuck with relatively light weight boolits due to the lower density of the alloy. This is a tough nut to crack.
That could work. But, for me, this is an exercise in getting THIS rifle to work. I have larger bore options and casting bismuth alloy roundball for the .50s is a deer slayer for sure. But THIS rifle could save me a couple of pounds on my back.

I may just keep it to roundball and the distances within 75 yards. A .440 roundball in the bismuth alloy only weighs 109 grains. As a close estimate, I looked up .380 bullet penetration tests with FMJ and hardcast flat points. A 100-grain .357 bullet fired from a .380 is, at the muzzle, only going as fast as a roundball would be at 100 yards. Even then, they're clearing 30"+ of gel medium. So, if I'm launching a 109 grain bismuth alloy round ball at 1700 fps or more, I've got all the punch I'll need. It wouldn't be much of a wound channel once it slows. But it may yet be adequate. So this is backup plan #1. I'd still like a good, wide meplat conical though.
 
Perhaps a stupid question: can conicals be patched like round ball & shot effectively? I'm thinking of something along the lines of the PA conical. If I get a mould made to a roundball diameter, like .440, and then patch it when loading, would it still shoot well?

Long story short, while it seems like an off-the-wall question, it's a legit one. I'm continuing my experiment in casting .45 conicals with the Rotometals Bi alloy (CA hunting rules). The Lee REAL bullet and that alloy aren't a good combo for this rifle. The alloy chips while loading in the bore & needs a mallet on the short starter to actually get it in (not something I can do in the backcountry). I may see about adding more tin to reduce the expansion during cooling and increase the malleability. But it would certainly be easier to just make a reduced-diameter bullet & then patch it.
Instead of paper wrapped or patching a conical you possibly could try a felt wad under a bismuth or other non lead alloy, cast or sized to the exact bore size grease groove solid base bullet. In .50 cal I am shooting 75-80 grains by volume 2F Swiss, a greased felt wad under a .500 no excuses (pure lead) 600 gr. The green mountain LRH 15/16” barrel bore is .500. Also used the same in a Pedersoli Hawken Hunter 1:24 with a .500 bore. No issues with the bullet becoming unseated during a 4 day hunt averaging 10-12 miles a day on horseback. 100 yard groups are exceptional even though it is a thumper on both ends. Thoughts anyone? I have no experience casting with anything but pure lead or wheel weights that will not work in this situation,
 
Can you offer more details on that? What bullet and what patching?
I bought swaged bullets from Buffalo arms. I bought my template and patching paper from them too. I can’t say what the bullet diameter or paper thickness was as I don’t have the rifle or supplies anymore. 550 grain bullet with 90 grains of Swiss 2F and the dreaded Pedersoli butt plate hurt like hell.

The 550 shot better that the 500 at long range.
 
I have larger bore rifles. I'm trying to make this .45 work. At just over 5 lb, it would save me a lot of weight on backcountry hunts.
Hey there. Had a passing remembrance...
Once upon a time on this website (I think) there was a bullet design posted that was really impressive. Well, to me any how. It was essentially a maxiball except rear of the bullet was a sphere intended to be cloth patched as a round ball. Perhaps some such could be made to function acceptably with extremely hard alloy if the front bands which would normally engrave on the rifling were precisely bore diameter. You'd still have the problem of a relatively light weight bullet of perhaps greater length than the twist will stabilize but perhaps some such design could be made to stay centered with the axis of the bore and follow the twist of the rifling.
 
Hey there. Had a passing remembrance...
Once upon a time on this website (I think) there was a bullet design posted that was really impressive. Well, to me any how. It was essentially a maxiball except rear of the bullet was a sphere intended to be cloth patched as a round ball. Perhaps some such could be made to function acceptably with extremely hard alloy if the front bands which would normally engrave on the rifling were precisely bore diameter. You'd still have the problem of a relatively light weight bullet of perhaps greater length than the twist will stabilize but perhaps some such design could be made to stay centered with the axis of the bore and follow the twist of the rifling.
Any chance you can find a picture of such a projectile?
 
At this point, I've got some .430 conicals on the way to try patched as well as some .40s with plastic whizbangs. I'd really prefer to come up with a bore-diameter cast option. But I'm losing faith that the alloy will hold up to that goal for this rifle.
 
The .430 bullets with a 0.010" patch give me a good, snug fit. Unlike a ball that only makes contact with the rifling at the widest part, the bullet is making contact along its length, causing several folds that increase the total patch thickness between the bullet and the bore. Thankfully, it's not so tight that I have to use a mallet but I'm feeling like I'll need to run a wet patch down before I can load a second shot. Hope to try it out this weekend & see if it flies straight. If it does, this could open a lot of options from the bismuth alloy I've been working with to factory-made copper bullets at near full-bore diameters. If it's a fail, well, that's the cost of experimentation.
 


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