Patched Roundball

[Firelock937]

Not trying to stir the pot, but there is plenty of historical use of unpatched balls in rifles.
Rifle units in the Rev. War carried loose balls and patching material, but it is widely accepted that they often also carried a supply of cartridges to be loaded and fired the same as a musket.
I have read accounts that at the Battle of Kings Mountain, when the fighting got hot many of the overmountain men would hold rbs in their mouths and spit them down the bores of their guns to expedite loading. I'm sure both rifles and smoothbores were used by these men.
Then there is the breach loaded Ferguson Rifle that could not be patched if loading from the breach.
And finally the indian fighter Lewis Wetzel, who was famous for loading his rifle while running. I doubt that he took the time to patch his rb while running with angry warriors on his heels. Just a few examples I am aware of, even if some are "extenuating circumstances."
The biggest problem I see with no patch is the danger of it coming off the powder charge. If the ball is tight enough to prevent that, it will probably work good enough for many.

 

[Supercracker]

Not trying to stir the pot, but there is plenty of historical use of unpatched balls in rifles.
Rifle units in the Rev. War carried loose balls and patching material, but it is widely accepted that they often also carried a supply of cartridges to be loaded and fired the same as a musket.
I have read accounts that at the Battle of Kings Mountain, when the fighting got hot many of the overmountain men would hold rbs in their mouths and spit them down the bores of their guns to expedite loading. I'm sure both rifles and smoothbores were used by these men.

Yeah, but I've always thought that they had balls for patched, accurate fire (Aimed, first shot) and balls for "I need to sling projectiles at that big group of guys over there as fast as possible."

 

[biliff]

Muzzleloader Magazine had an article in their 2010 Sept-Oct issue testing bare ball shooting in rifles.

Basic points were:

1)Velocity loss was around 5%
2)Accuracy was good enough for close quarters combat (4-5" groups at 50yds)
3)Bores fouled extremely quickly and most testing had to be stopped around 5 to 7 shots.

It would be interesting if Black horse would post what kind of grouping he has at 80-100yds with bare ball.

 

[tom deinek]

" Folks seem to want to believe the weirdo stuff."

Went to Catholic schools in the 1950's. Nun told us that oldsters would bite off fringe from their jacket/shirt & use it for a rb patch in ml time.

If Sister Mary Gonzalez said it, such was true.

 

[necchi]

Historical referance to the common knowledge of a need for wadding/patch for accuracy;

on June 23, 1780. A mixed band of Continentals and militia were stubbornly defending the town from 2500 British and Hessian regulars, when they began to run low on musket wadding. Caldwell did not hesistate. Running into the Springfield Presbyterian Church he gathered up hymnals and passed them out to the troops to tear out the pages for wadding, all the time yelling “Give ”˜em Watts Boys!

http://almostchosenpeople.wordpress.com/2009/12/16/give-em-watts-boys/

They Knew about patch an wadd,,,

 

[Mongo40]

Fellas I started this thread cause my brother told me he didn't use no patch an I thought it would cause problems, not so you could bash him but just inform him of the errors of his ways, he only has two post on here because he don't frequent this site. He made the comment to me that mountain men didn't use no patch, but he had no reference for me on that so I was hoping someone here would have some historical reference that they did. I wanted you guys to give me facts to argue my point with him, not for anyone to start getting ugly about it or bash him cause he doesn't hang out on here. He's not going to tell you what kind of groups he gets cause about the only time he pulls the rifle out of the safe is Deer season, I've not known him to do any target shooting with it other than when he first got it, Thank you for all the informative info as to why to use Patches especially the thompson center booklet info. I think we can let it rest now I've got plenty of ammo to use against him.

 

[necchi]

Sorry if it came off as bashing the man,
Those of us that have been in this game for years have a respect and adoration for Traditional ML guns and have learned alot of stuff through all those years.
So when someone comes along and states an anomaly in proper shooting of these guns it strikes a cord that needs carefull consideration before some of the new too the sport folks get an idea that can lead them down a road that will likley leave them unsatisfied with the ability of Traditional guns.
I'm sure what he does works for him, and you'll probably have a hard time changing his mind, we see the same thing every fall during regular Deer season here in MN even with centerfire guns. They come out of the wood work, with all manner of guns an ammo and succeed in harvest,, That's enough to prove their point and because they have 4 bullets left from the box of ammo they got 12 years ago their still goood for a few years.

Can you make shot's without a patch? Absolutely.
Is it the best way to do it because sometime and someplace in history some one else did it?
UUhhmm, :hmm: Na,,it's not.

 

[Zonie]

In my reading of things that were written back in the day, I've come across several descriptions of loading a muzzle loading rifle and they describe using a patch along with the ball.

As I recall, John Audubon and Osborne Russell both mentioned it in their writings.

There are several other writers who have described Americans loading their rifles with patched balls but the problem is most of the authors at the time didn't bother to tell us even a good description of the guns they saw used, let alone how they were loaded.

Because (almost?) everyone who shot a rifle used the same methods, describing how it was done was usually overlooked.

It's kinda like a modern author failing to write down how someone filled his gas tank on a trip.
Since it is common knowledge of the time, nothing is usually written about it.

 

[Dphar]

In my reading of things that were written back in the day, I've come across several descriptions of loading a muzzle loading rifle and they describe using a patch along with the ball.

As I recall, John Audubon and Osborne Russell both mentioned it in their writings.

There are several other writers who have described Americans loading their rifles with patched balls but the problem is most of the authors at the time didn't bother to tell us even a good description of the guns they saw used, let alone how they were loaded.

Because (almost?) everyone who shot a rifle used the same methods, describing how it was done was usually overlooked.

It's kinda like a modern author failing to write down how someone filled his gas tank on a trip.
Since it is common knowledge of the time, nothing is usually written about it.

Everybody mentions it if they describe loading the rifle.

Dan

 

[Dphar]

First. We are discussion a spherical lead ball correct?

If it shoots as well unpatched as patched I think there is some problem with the patch/ball fit or the lube etc etc.
Most RBs are .005-.010 under bore size the fit means thatthe ball moving far enough to form an obstruction is a excellent possibility.
Since the accuracy is about the same my question would be, how large are the groups with and without the patch? The distance they were fired from would be important too.
5-6" at 50 yards will kill a deer. But its hardly the group size I would expect even from a marginally accurate rifle.
Dan

 

[Mongo40]

I know you guys all mint well but I know my brother an he'll close a deaf ear real quick unless you approach it right, I personally think he's useing to large a round ball,,, if its fitting that tight with out a patch then I know he is, I do like the analogy that if I told you I took a long trip but didn't mention I stopped to fill up with gas, because we all know that I had to thats a given, just as using a patch, I'll work on him some more, appreciate the info.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Most RBs are .005-.010 under bore size

Of course you mean most RBs

that most of us use

are under bore size.
I have seen bench shooters squeeze huge balls through a funnel shaped false muzzle, with patch, into their rifle. Of course they weren't shooting a round ball but they were loading one in accordance with the rules.
What works for his brother is his brothers way of doing things. I don't reccomend and I doubt he is getting optimum results.

 

[Firelock937]

I was not trying to imply that using unpatched balls in a rifle was the norm, just that Black Horse was not the first to do it, and that it was not unheard of. It certainly is not the best way to win a rifle match, but also not completely ineffective and instantly disasterous to a rifle.
Modern shooters seem to get all excited about bare lead touching rifling...I hear it all the time as I am an avid shooter of cast bullets in my centerfire guns. At ml velocities leading is not an issue. As long as he is keeping the rb on the powder charge he is at least safe, and judging by Black Horse's picture he is not littering the landscape with wounded animals.
But yes, I believe he would benefit from being shown what his rifle would be capable of with propper patch and ball.

 

[TGJaeger]

...that starts around the campfire with a bottle of Scotch and a vivid imagination

Hey now!

Some of my very best shooting has been done just that way! The more Scotch - the better I shot.

:wink:

 

[boker]

hey guys , i got a dumb question . but just wondering so i am going to ask / a round ball needs a patch .so why dont u have to use a patch with a t/c maxi ball ?? i know there got to be a answer but seems it would be no diffrent using a tight fitting ball with no patch as it would a maxi ball.

 

[Zonie]

Because, in my opinion, the Maxi was designed to be used without a patch.

Newtons laws of physics about bodies at rest wanting to remain at rest gets involved here.

The heavier weight of the Maxi resists accelerating down the bore and when the powder gas pressure forces the rear of it to move the front doesn't want to.
This results in the whole bullet expanding into the rifling grooves which seals the bore tightly.

The end result is a rather long length of lead is sealing the bore.
This long length is enough to resist wearing out as it travels down the barrel although, as we know, if it is not lubricated well it will "lead" the barrel.

A roundball on the other hand, having much less mass tends to expand much less before it moves although some expansion does happen.

Even though the roundball does grow slightly into the wall of the bore, a very small (or short) length of the ball is actually trying to seal the bore and if this were the only seal it would be quickly worn/melted away as the ball moves down the barrel.

The short length of the ball that would start to engage the rifling is much too short to take the shearing load that the rifling produces while it is causing the ball to rotate.

Between the short length of a gas seal and the shearing loads from the rifling the short area of lead will quickly be removed from the ball resulting in gas leaks and a lack of spin.
Both of these things will produce very poor accuracy.

By using a cloth patch that tightly seals the bore and has enough length (and strength) to transfer the riflings rotation to the ball we end up with a accurate, high velocity shot.

At least this is the way I see it. :grin:

 

[necchi]

One is a sphere, it should have a single contact with the bore/rifling around it's circumference because,, wel, it's a ball.

The other is an elongated or tube shaped thing that will have two or more circumference contacts along it's length too center it in the bore.

It's not about the lead fouling,( well that IS part of any barrel issue) or contact point as much as it's about getting the projectile to spin properly as it's launched.

Now if you take an over size ball and beat it down the bore, it's not going to be a perfect ball anymore,, it'll get the side mashed so that it resembles an elongated tube with round ends and a really wide section that fit's the bore/rifling,,
Does that make sence?

 

[boker]

i knew there had to be a good answer. thanks guys .

 

[reddog]

...that starts around the campfire with a bottle of Scotch and a vivid imagination

Hey now!

Some of my very best shooting has been done just that way! The more Scotch - the better I shot.

:wink:

We used to call it "Group Tightener"