Patent breech plug - why?

[coloradoclyde]

I deal with facts...not Google searches and keyboard opinions / theory for my answers.

Your "facts" are your opinions..... and you have more keyboard time on this forum than anyone I can find...
That makes you the keyboard expert. :blah:

 

[azmntman]

op: here we go.....!

 

[coloradoclyde]

22 years of actually using 1900's style Patent Breech plugs.

Tell us great Sage.....what experience do you have using non-patented breeches?

My guess is you started with a T/C and never deviated from that breech design.

 

[Vaino]

From your previous posts you did say that your flintlocks that you had built all had patent breeches like the TC breeches you used for many years. So...let's start there. One question, though....did you ever shoot a flat faced plug?

Judging from the numerous posts asre hunting and your preparation for your hunts, you are a very thorough person and asre the cleaning of your MLers every night after the hunt and putting fresh loads for the next AM, you don't leave much to chance. So I take it that your cleaning regimen is also more thorough and time consuming than most.

Many hunters don't go through what you do and that's where the trouble starts w/ patent breeches. They take shortcuts that would suffice for flat faced plugs and expect the same results w/ patent breeches....and find out, sometimes the hard way, that patent breeches do require more care and time in cleaning.

Have witnessed fellow hunters causing failures to fire w/ patent breeches because of sloppy cleaning. 2 of the MLers were TC Hawkens and 1 was a custom Hawken.

You made statements that are beyond your knowledge of my experience.....sad to say....Fred

 

[coloradoclyde]

They are simple, fast, and self cleaning from the back blast out the vent channel...50 shot range sessions and never have to do anything with them...no breech scrapers needed, no vent pics needed, etc...don't even own any. Cleaning up after a range trip or hunt is simple with a cleaning patch around a small caliber bore brush like a .32cal...slides down into the reduced diameter powder chamber, etc

.

They are self cleaning during use...require no vent picking, require no scrapers, and after a range session takes about 30 seconds to clean the powder chamber with a cleaning patch wrapped around a brush smaller than bore size, about 60 seconds to clean the vent channel with a q-tip, done.

And thus the myth of the self cleaning muzzleloader was born........Talk about doing a disservice. :shocked2:

And 22 years of personal factual experience with 24,000 - 25,000 shots now is that modern designed Patent Breeches of the past 50 years are outstanding, fast, 100% reliable, and simple / easy to clean.

24000-25000 shots and you never had to pick a vent once...... :bull:

 

[roundball]

Have witnessed fellow hunters causing failures to fire w/ patent breeches because of sloppy cleaning.
2 of the MLers were TC Hawkens and 1 was a custom Hawken.

It’s interesting that your position on the reliability of 1900’s style Patent Breech is not based on years and years of your own personal hands on experience with multiple Flintlocks having 1900's style Patent Breeches...but based upon a couple guys who you witnessed had problems...which you attribute to the Patent Breeches because they didn’t clean their equipment right or something.
Now that's sad to say for sure.
:wink:
And I have to be honest and mention that’s analogous to claiming all Chevrolet engines are no good because you witnessed a couple guys who didn’t keep up with their oil & coolant levels and their engines seized up...hardly the fault of Chevrolet !
:grin:

At any rate, while I appreciate you pointing out that I’m probably pretty thorough in my care & feeding of Flintlocks...and I am...I don’t consider myself doing a single thing beyond the normal activities that are suggested by manufacturers and/or routinely posted & discussed here by good Flintlock shooters / hunters.
Simple Recap:
Personal experience is that I run long range sessions without bothering with the Patent Breeches I use.
After I'm finished, I wipe out the upper powder chamber with a patch around a smaller than bore size diameter brush, then run a cleaning Q-tip through the vent channel...1-2 minutes, done.

Simple...not complicated.
Quick...not time consuming.

And I wish you nothing but continued good fortune enjoying this great hobby regardless of what style breechplug you chose.

:thumbsup:

 

[coloradoclyde]

And I have to be honest and mention that’s analogous to claiming all Chevrolet engines are no good because a couple guys didn’t keep up with their oil & coolant levels and their engines seized up...Hardly the fault of Chevrolet !

How is using an analogy to support your own argument ......."Being honest".... :shake:

Honesty would be telling us of your non-patent breech experience.

 

[George]

What is the purpose of having a hollow breech plug that is narrower than the bore?

Attempts to increase the pressure and velocity of the burning powder, or to direct it in some way to make the main charge catch fire and burn quicker, go back a long way, into the late 17th century, at least. In a book from Portugal, 1718, a couple are described, one is unique and I've never seen it discussed, before.

1) They put an iron rod in the center of the breech plug, projecting forward, with a rosette on the tip which was shaped to distribute the fire of ignition more evenly and make ignition quicker.

2) They made a short section of the bore at the breech, just enough to hold the powder, larger than the rest of the bore, thinking this would force the gasses out through a smaller opening and increase the power.

They also invented the mechanism of Ferguson's rifle and Queen Anne's pistol, but those are other stories.

Sorry for the interruption, now back to your regularly occurring mayhem,

Spence

 

[Stumpkiller]

Lets play nice, guys.

Personally, I never pull my flintlock barrels and find the flat breech easiet to clean (had patent breeches on several percussion and one flintock).

I like the idea of the cupped breech, but will soldier on with flat.

 

[coloradoclyde]

no vent pics needed, etc

Guess you forgot that you posted this :hmm:

Of course the same thing is going on inside the bore as its sucking water out of the air, but it's an advantage as fouling stays so soft you don't don't have to wipe between shots if you don't want to...I use pipe cleaners for the vent.

It's understandable that you would forget saying it.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Again, attention to reading comprehension will clarify:

22 years of actually using 1900's style Patent Breech plugs.

I deal with facts...not Google searches and keyboard opinions / theory for my answers.

When I made the switch from caplocks to Flintlocks after 9 years of shooting caps, I didn't trust or have confidence in the Flintlock, but it was basically because I knew nothing about them and to a begining Flintlock shooter I readily admit the darned contraption does give one pause.

I went through some of the common things we always see posted...keeping caplocks to use during bad weather...or keeping caplocks in case of a chance for a trophy hunt or something, etc...been there, did those things...and it finally it occurred to me I was trying to ride a full size bike but was keeping the training wheels on.

From that day in 2001 I committed myself 100% to use Flintlocks for everything, all year, all weather...dedicated myself to learn it and get it done, and in no time I realized the simplicity of it was just:
1) Keep your powder dry
2) Keep your flint sharp

Every time I hunt, the flint has a freshly knapped sharp edge on it and I never let my powder get damp...and mind you I use 4F and have had 100% reliability since 2001...never had a single Flintlock failure for any of the times I dropped the flint on a deer, turkey, squirrel, dove, or crow.

Somebody took issue with my comments that I'd passed the 10,000 shot mark...guess I'd mentioned that too many times or something...but the reality that comes from a lot of range shooting and a lot of game taken with them now, is the absolute confidence that Flintlocks lack for nothing...just keep the powder dry and the flint sharp...there isn't anything else.

:hmm:

 

[roundball]

Remembering the old saying that “a picture is worth 1000 words”, here’s a photo of an old plug as an illustration of how simple it is to clean the kind of Patent Breeches that have been in use since at least 1970”¦right at a half century now”¦by manufacturing companies like Green Mountain, Thompson/Center, Traditions, CVA, etc. Very simple and quick.

 

[coloradoclyde]

CVA and Traditions don't use that style of breech plug.....at least none that I have ever seen....
Investarms an d Lyman do .....

 

[Vaino]

Lotta extra "crap" to take along as pictured VS a flat faceed plug which requires a lot less, eg..none of the following: cotton swabs, 2 differently sized brushes and can't tell if what's wrapped around the brush is paper toweling or a piece of cloth.

Mind you...I'm only kidding....people should clean their MLers w/ whatever makes them feel "right".

These types of discussions usually aren't very enlightening or mind changing....what a person goes in with, is what he/she comes out with. The reason being that most of these discussions are based on personal opinions and conjecture....including both yours and mine and others. After awhile the discussion deteriorates into personal references and that's when I leave..... :grin: ...Besides, I hear my shop "calling"......Fred

 

[Dphar]

Thanks Dan, good stuff, the hemisphere plug face is a good idea and if the face shoulder is fit against the bore interior so the plug to barrel transition is smooth, the hemisphere face would clean up better than a flat face plug would in the corners.
I like the hemisphere idea and will start to us it in my guns.
I will face them in my lathe rather than grind a ball cutter for each different caliber.

If you look closely at the plug in the lathe you will see the imprint of the grooves in the felt tip marker color on the breech face.

Dan

 

[Herb]

Roundball, what are the diameters of the powder chambers in your custom made (McCandeless(?) flint patent breech plugs?