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Pattern Density of Cylinder Bore

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Good thought . I might give it whirl since I have a week yet before my trip. What I didn't say was that while patterning my gun yesterday I used Circle fly cushion wads soaked in Crisco ,water closet seal and a about half a pound of pure bees wax. That mixture after I let the wads dry kept them stiff and not as fragile as the wads I use for skeet shooting soaked in Crisco salad oil ,or soap and water. In turn they gave me a better pattern . I believe the wads under discharge force did not allow the shot to get imbedded in the overly soft wad , and or cause the wad to fall apart under the force of the powder charge. More testing is in order to know for sure.. Nonetheless , hunting over pointing dogs I see no reason at all for taking shots further than my guns reach..

Thanks.
Twice
 
I always used copper plated #4's, and took head shots. Once, only one shot took out the gobbler through the head.
 
A fine copper mesh, with Fine bone meal as a buffer..

Now, I understand what they were describing. You can buy copper mesh wire still- McMasters.com if you want to try this. I can't say about bone meal.

But, the use of any kind of buffer indicates that the shooters even then understood the need to keep the pellets ROUND in the bore, and were using the fine copper mesh wire to protect the lead pellets from rubbing directly against the bore of the shotgun. The Buffer- any buffer-- keeps the shot pellets from being deformed by the sudden push of the expanding gases when the shot is fired. Buffers are being used today in Premium shotgun shells for certain applications( Long range goose loads and turkey loads come to mind.)

IF we take Makesumsmoke, and Captn. Fred's information, and begin using thick mattress ticking that is well oiled , to make a shot cup, we will get the same improvements that the copper wire mesh cup gave to cylinder bore guns, with some difference, of course:

1. As I understand it now, these mesh cups had no slits to help them open up and release the shot. You would expect it to take more time for the lead shot to separate from the copper wire mesh cup, than it will from the mattress ticking cup. However, depending on the size of MESH used,( unknown) and the size of pellets used( unknown), you are going to get some deformity of pellets on the outside of the load, since the softer lead will be pushed INTO the wire mesh. That means that when the pellets DO release from the mesh cup, they will slow down faster.

By comparison, using a Mattress ticking cup well soaked in Ballistol, or any vegetable oil, you have a LUBRICATING cup that slides over the bore, and Nothing about the fabric that would deform any of the pellets. Since the fabric is soaked with oil, there is little space between threads of the fabric weave into which lead pellets can push. The net result is more ROUND Pellets leaving the muzzle with the rest of the load of shot.

2. With buffers- no matter how fine or how light in weight-- you still have a place in the flight when the buffers Leave the shot column, all at once, disturbing the air flow in an around the column. You don't have that happen with a ticking cup, without the buffers. Test such loads( with and without copper mesh), with and without buffers, to see what gives the best patterns.

However, there is no reason that whatever buffer you might choose to use in a copper wire mesh cup can't be used in your mattress ticking cup. Today, we have a wide choice of buffering agents to mix in with the shot. One that has proved incredibly good, and very cheap, is the Jiffy Brand corn muffin mix. Its a finely ground corn flour, and it flows very nicely into the spaces between the pellets of a load of shot in the barrel. You simply have to tap the barrel repeatedly as the buffer is poured into the shot, to get the buffer to flow into the load of shot and fill all the spaces.

If a buffered load is desired for use in a shotgun with a cylinder bore, this is the kind of thing best done indoors, where you don't have to worry about wind and rain.

Some kind of loading block, or tube needs to be made into which the shot is poured, and the buffer added. Once placed over the muzzle with the ticking cup in place, the entire load would be pushed( or dropped) down into the cup. The fabric would be trimmed to size, and an OS card placed on top of the shot, so that the entire package can be driven down onto the OP wad.

The only Minor difficulty I see is the need to make up a "forming " stick( or "short starter") to form the fabric cup. Using these are nothing new to MLers, I hope, as virtually everyone has used a short starter to push a PRB down the muzzle. The same thing is needed, whether you form the cup from copper wire mesh, or from a Reese's Pieces wax paper cup( or any other wax paper).

If they were available, a dowel of 9/16"(.5625) in diameter would be about perfect for a forming stick. Its wide enough to do the forming, but narrow enough not to become wedged or stuck to the oiled fabric, for easy withdrawal. There is enough "slop", or "play" with a dowel that diameter to allow the shooter some ability to circle the rod against the bore, to insure that the fabric is sticking to the bore all around the circumference.

Without knowing the exact shot load that Luie intends to use, nor the actual bore diameter of his gun, Its a bit of a guess to figure out how LONG the forming stick needs to be. But, a 1 oz, load takes up about 5/8 inches of space in a 20 gauge shell.

A 5/8" dowel can be filed or trimmed down to the desired diameter, and then cut to the needed length, with extra length to fit into some kind of handle. Its no harder to build than making any other short starter, In my personal experience. If you don't have the needed tools, most wood shops could do this kind of small project while you wait.

In my 12 gauge, my load of 75 grains of 2Fg powder, with 1 1/4 oz. of #5 shot will knock pheasants out of the sky as if they were smacked with a tennis racket at least to 35 yards. I believe, that with the fabric cup described by Captn. Fred and Makesumsmoke, that yardage will easily extend to 40 yards. This load is leaving the muzzle at just over 1,000 fps. and was a favored hunting load for the market hunters on the Illinois river, back in the 1970s, and 80s, for killing ducks out to 50 yards!

I do believe that turkey hunters should try to use a load that puts shot reliably into the head and neck area. The problem I have had with using any shot smaller than #7 1/2 is that you may get lots more hits out past 40 yards, but the pellet energy is not enough to cleanly kill these strong birds at that distance.

I believe this is the reason that old time hunters relied on larger shot sizes- #5, #4, #2, #1 and BB-- to kill turkeys. Those heavy shot pellets deliver the energy to kill if even ONE pellet hits a vital area, at that distance, even at relatively low BP velocities.

Again, this is an example of why BP shooting is an entirely different "game" than shooting modern cartridge guns.

People come into this side of the shooting sports, with all kinds of information derived from shooting, and reloading smokeless powder loads, only to find that shooting BP guns requires a different way of doing things.

120 years ago, when shooters, for the first time, were being asked to switch from Black Powder to using Smokeless powder, they must have felt just as confused about how the higher velocities changed just about everything they thought they knew after using Black powder loads all their lives. :hmm: :shocked2:
 
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You Betchya. If I were a Turkey hunter I would use pretty much the same . :thumbsup:
Twice.
 
Mike Brines said:
I always used copper plated #4's, and took head shots. Once, only one shot took out the gobbler through the head.
I normally use hard 6's but didn't have my normal turkey gun available this past spring...called one in to 22 yards, and dumped him with a load of nickle plated #7's out of a GM .20ga with an Imp. Cyl. jug choke
 
I don't know that velocities was what confused them .Because they did not go from BP muzzle loading straight to smokeless cartridge. They had BP Breech loader cartridges long before the invent of smokeless .. I seemed some people back then had a hard time giving up what they were using . Same was true with the flinters when the percussion started to be known. Human nature I suppose. Getting back to brass wired cartridges ( I did little reading) they had different color codes for different distances. Example. The green colored one were for long range and open spaces, the red ones were for 35-40 yard shots and the what they called standard was for standard ranges . The theory of larger shot held true back then as it does to day. The larger the shot the less count you can fit in to the barrel of the gun. Yes you can load the barrel up to muzzle but what applies in to modern shot shells applied back then because of the powder charge it would take to move the extra shot if you were going to Bring the shot count of 4’s to the same shot count of 6’s . Not practical back then as it is not practical even today..

By the way , by trying to find something to read on the bras wire cartridges I discovered that a paten was taken out on a crew on choke by a fellow back in 1866 or there about.

Twice.
 
A word about patents: Not even the U.S. patent office guarantees that the person receiving a patent is the first to "invent" the idea. That is why we have patent infringement suits. One of the Famous ones was between Edison and Westinghouse over the lightbulb, IIRC. Edison won.

Regarding the patents on "chokes", I believe at the time there was a serious dispute as to when and who first discovered it. There were competing claims in Europe at the time. :hmm: :surrender: :hatsoff:
 
Eley also make cartridges he labeled as standard or something to that effect and it had no wire in it just a paper cup and an over shot wad, but I think it was basically the close range cartridge, they claim they were real popular in the US in the 1850's. I've never seen them here though.
 
True. They had the appearance of a little drum with the cushion wad at the base and the over shot card pasted on top wrapped with heavy paper ..
From what I read so far we take too much for granted that the modern human came up with the shotgun discoveries known to us now. While true that the old timers had limitation placed on them due to the equipment they had for use, and unlike us that take the easy way out ,it didn’t stop them from experimenting ..

Twice.
 
Depending on what time period you are talking about, Eley made three different versions of its muzzleloading shot cartridges. The "universal" cartridge was yellow in color and was made entirely out of paper (no wire basket). Eley also made wire cartridges which were color coded for range. The red or royal cartridge was intended for medium range and the green cartridge was intended for long range.

Eley claimed that the universal (paper only) cartridge improved pattern density by 25%. I use a paper cartridge when hunting upland birds. However, I get only a slight improvement in pattern density with my paper shot cartridges.
 
Do you mind sharing the how-to, to your paper cartridges.
I like to get IC out of my gun if possible..
Thanks.
Twice
 
Twice boom said:
"...I can tell you that I was patterning and choreographing my loads at Friendship long before you ever thought about buying your first baker gun and longer than that before you bought your first Muzzle loader, and have the skeet medals on my wall to prove it. . So when I say 20-25 yards out of a twelve you can take it to the bank that is the max killing distance and I do not care how you load your particular guns. Anything beyond that distance your chances of crippling increases by two fold . And if you didn’t know this , even with modern guns the max recommended killing distances for Cylinder is 20-22 yards, IC 25-30 ,Mod 30-40-and Full is from 40-45 yards give or take a yard or two one way or the other and it has been for over a hundred years,that is untill you and few other came along to change the rules.”¦
Twice.
:rotf:

Pretty interesting bravado comments there...in case you're not aware of it, the post comes across with a real 'attitude'...raising questions about credibility of anything you might post.

Why did you think it was necessary to make such comments to member DaveK ?
 
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You left out part of my post to DK,Why? at any rate it is not any more so than you telling us your prowess when slewing turkey with full jug choked guns.
My intent with my post was to point out That I have gone to great pains to know all that I can about Cylinder choked guns . I did that by shooting countless patterns and cronographing various charges to see what affect speed had my guns patterns. And I shouldn't be thought of as a Arm chair quarter back .
But you are right my post did not come off as well as I intended it to come off. So you either going to forgive me ,or learn to live with it. No attitude intended on my part , but I am not going to be talked down by you., Bottom line.

Twice
 
I dont have a clue as to whether this is a historical method, however I use 100% cotton resume' paper to make wads which I size to the amount of shot I want to use. I hand crimp the bottom and use a thin shot card over the top. Works for me and also improves my patterns in my jug chokes somewhat.
 
I'm going to try loading some of those shot cartridges now that I know they are HC..Even if I don't end up using them I will at least would have shared the experience of making them with a likeminded sportsman from long ago.

Thanks.
Twice
 
If'n I may, Twice, that's why we do things like we do them. To feel maybe what they felt. :thumbsup:
 
Thanks for posting that texcl.
Might keep someone from thinking it's an 18th century thing.
I have seen one of the "Royal" ones for medium range. Can't remember offhand who patented the Eley cartridges. There is a good 1860's ad for them in Gunmakers of London by Blackmore.
 
I tell my buddies who are all inline shooters that the muzzleloaders (of the late percusion era) and the ammo they fed them were more advanced than inlines. By the end of the muzzleloading era they were doing some pretty spetacular stuff with them.
 
Mike.
It's a crazy unexplainable thing isn't . Almost like a Love affair that wont let go. How many times have I walked with my old gun in hand and have my imagination drift to the times that might have been. I just wish there was a way to know who the first owner was and little about his sporting life. He had to be a sportsman with good taste for the finer things . I can only imagine and that’s ok.
Thanks for making it know that you feel as I do.
Twice.
 
Twice

Here is a link to my method for making M/L shot cartridges which are loosely based on the Ely Universal Cartridge. I have also included the patterning information for the shot cartridges. As you will see from the patterning information, I get a little denser patterns in the center of the pattern with the shot cartridges. However, the improvement is only very modest.
www.muzzleloadingshotguns.com/articles/makingmuzzleloadingshotcartridges

With the original Eley cartridges you could get better patterns by putting a wad below the cartridge. My guess is that using a 12 gauge nitro card below the cartridge would improve the patterns. However, I have not tested it out. I shoot choked guns and am not too worried about tightening up the patterns.

Capt. Jas.

The person who patented the "wire cartridge" was Joshua Jenour. I believe that "royal" cartridge was the same as the "red" cartridge. Both were intended from medium range shots. There is little bit of history regarding the Eley cartridges at http://www.muzzleloadingshotguns.com/articles/eleypatentwirecartridges
 
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