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pc correct loads for 45 cal flintlock

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horsetrader

36 Cal.
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As Iunderstand the origional longrifles where built in a fairly small caliber ( around 0.43inch) to conserve powder and lead. So what kind of powder charge would be PC correct in a 45?
Would you then feel confident hunting deer and hogs with that load.....
 
Loads were much smaller then than we use now. Then a load of 40-45 grains would have been considered adequate for killing up to deer-sized game. Lead was expensive to buy, and had to be transported by foot, or horseback long distances to have it available to hunters. To conserve the lead, they used light charges so that the ball would NOT exit the game, and therefore could be recovered, and used to mold a new ball. They were excellent trackers then, out of necessity, and followed footprints, NOT BLOOD TRAILS, as is so popular today among a lot of hunters.

For hunting wild boar, you probably want to use conicals, or at minimum, hard alloy cast balls in your .45. Its not likely, based on my personal experience, that you are likely to get a side shot at the ear of a wild boar, so that you can kill it quickly with a shot to the brain. The rest of the animal has very thick skin, heavy muscles, and large thick bones. You need some Punch to send a ball through them to the heart-lungs.

I recommend using Conicals, and further recommend using at least a .54 caliber rifle. I know boars have been killed with much smaller caliber guns, and with just about everything from a .22 rimfire up. But, in those cases, the actual facts indicate a very calm shooters, with a lot of skill, who placed the bullet exactly where it was needed to kill the boar instantly. The shots also tend to be much closer than most new hunters try to take on wild boar.
 
horsetrader said:
As Iunderstand the origional longrifles where built in a fairly small caliber ( around 0.43inch) to conserve powder and lead. So what kind of powder charge would be PC correct in a 45?
Would you then feel confident hunting deer and hogs with that load.....
I've hunted/killed deer with my .45cals, both 128grn/.440s and 255grn maxi's...the heavier maxi of course is devastating on deer, including distance. But IMO, I PERSONALLY do not think of the .45cal/.440 ball as a super strong projectile, certainly not at long distances. I use stout deer hunting loads (below) and my opinion is based upon making a heart shot on a 6 pointer at only 60 yards, broke a rib going in and was found bulging the hide on the far side.

If that had been at 100 yards I'm not sure what might have happened and I keep that in the back of my mind when hunting the .45 ball...the good news is that where I hunt its rare to see beyond 50-60 yards so in those conditions the deer is going home with me...but I'd worry about 100yds with bone involved.

Confidence for deer and hogs?
I want deer inside 75yds for a heart shot, and I'd want hogs closer to ensure I could put the ball straight into his ear...they don't have much head movement jerking around like a deer does.

My .45cal RB deer hunting load is:

.45cal Flintlock / 32" barrel
90grns Goex 3F
Oxyoke wad over powder
.018" pillow ticking
Hornady .440
 
I think the lack of a need for a large bore was more of a factor than lead and powder conservation as the east became more settled,caliber to caliber and a half charge would likely have been not uncommon.I would suggest not being to concerned of the PC value of your charge as they liely varied as folks loads do today and they were not dumb as to penetration and such, a .45 with 60-70 gr 3fis a good deer load to 75 yds in my experience, I cannot say about hogs around here they are all in the form of bacon.I have often heard how old timers used light loads so the ball could be recovered but never seen any documentation on such practice.
 
As Iunderstand the origional longrifles where built in a fairly small caliber ( around 0.43inch) to conserve powder and lead. So what kind of powder charge would be PC correct in a 45?

The belief that the smaller calibers were prevalent seems to be one of those oft repeated "facts" that may not hold up under scrutiny. As tg said, they more than likely used what was needed for the game at hand. In the earlier years of the settlement of America larger game was present in the east such as the elk and the woodland buffaloe. Later the big game animals in the east were reduced to deer and black bear.

A member of my club once did a statistical study of rifles in, I think, one or more of the RCA books. He came up with an average caliber of .54. That probably included the smoothbores as well but I think it legitimate to include them since they were often used with ball.

One of the journals I've read by a Rocky mountain fur trade era sojourner recommended that prospective mountain men traveling west should equip with a rifle of at least 36 bore which is a ball of approximately .506 diameter. Indeed, the .52 caliber seems to have been a popular caliber of the day. Surley this is a case of carrying what would be adequate for the job at hand even though a .58 or larger would have been *more adequate*. As time marched on, the rifles carried into the west seemed to get a bit smaller. Many of the Leman rifles were smaller than .50.
 
Not trying to stir the pot but I defy anyone to fine tune a load that will stop a ball inside a game animal so as to be extracted and reused. There are just too many variables. That old saw is much like the old claims of never shooting a deer unless it was in front of a rock so the ball could ricochet and take a second animal.

Something I haven't seen mentioned is the fact that penetration is normally inversely proportional to velocity. I would expect a .45 prb to penetrate a deer a little better, on average, at 100 yards than at 25 yards. Velocity increases expansion thus decreasing penetration. The shots I get in the woods seldom exceed 50 yards or there about. Sometimes I recover the ball, sometimes I don't. When I do recover the ball it is always a flat disk. When I don't recover it most likely it is not quite as flat. I've never killed a hog so can't comment on that. I can comment of the effects of prb on deer that I've experienced in the field. The farthest I've shot a deer with a .440 prb and 65 grains 3f is 75 yards. The shot produced complete through and through penetration. The last deer I killed was shot at about 20 yards with a .440 prb and 80 grains 3f. The ball flattened out and was under the hide on the opposite side. The shots were identical.
 
hanshi said:
Not trying to stir the pot but I defy anyone to fine tune a load that will stop a ball inside a game animal so as to be extracted and reused. There are just too many variables.
:grin: you might want to rethink that...while sitting squirrel hunting with a .45cal Flintlock using a throttled back charge of 30grns Goex 3F, on two different squirrel hunts I've killed a Doe and a 5 pointer that came wandering through the oaks about 20yds in front of me...perfect heart shots, they each dropped within sight after a brief sprint...no pass throughs
 
I may be as old as dirt, but I was not living back when the Trappers were exploring the Rockie Mountains. So, I don't have first hand information.

But, years ago, now, in Muzzle Blasts, the issue was raised by a man researching a book he wrote on possible bags. He visited museums all over the country looking at possible bags. He noted a couple of things:

a. No evidence of Short starters, nor any loops to hold them in the bags;

b. When the bag came with a fixed powder measure he tested the measure with black powder and a scale to see how much powder the measure threw.

When He was looking at Jim Bridger's Gear, the powder measure only threw 50 grains.

He was curious, as he had read a biography of OLE GABE, when he was younger. He went back, found the book and reread it. Bridger was quoted as saying he used ONE measure of powder if he was hunting deer; 2 measures for Elk and black bear, and three measures of powder if he was hunting Grizzly bears. His rifle was either a .53 or .54, depending on what source you read. ( I believe one of those numbers is just a typo.)

Bridger further explained that he used the smaller powder charges so as to NOT Shoot all the way through the game, so he could recover the lead ball, and re-melt and cast it.

I think most of us would consider a 50 grain charge of powder to be fairly light in any .54 caliber rifle today.

If you pick the angle of your shot, ( I, for instance, like to shoot so that my ball either breaks a front leg/shoulder on entering, or breaks the front leg/shoulder on the way out) and use a light charge of powder, its quite possible to recover your ball from the carcass. Having done it on several occasions, I speak from personal experience.

I was " Trained" about picking my shots by a very good friend, who has been shooting deer all his life, and has a huge collection of bullets, and ball of all calibers, that he has recovered from deer. He was very adamant with me over choosing my shots, and the first question he asked me when I got back home after a successful deer hunt was, " did you recover your ball? Okay, when can you bring it over here for me to see?"

Jim got his backside whooped by his father if he ever shot a pheasant any where other than its head. I had heard that story about him from other common friends, but never talked to him about it.

Then, one day, a very good friend of mine told me about the time he went Pheasant hunting with Jim. Jim groaned after shooting a bird flushing far out front of them, and said to Bruce he thought he might have hit that bird too far back.

Later, when they cleaned the birds, Jim had 4 birds and ONE of the 4 had ONE PELLET in its neck, just behind its skull. The other three had NO pellets anywhere but in the head!

Bruce told me he never questioned Jim's ability, or his story about how he learned to shoot pheasants in the head with his shotgun ever again.

Later, I asked Jim about the story of his father, and he admitted I had been told correctly. Then he wanted to know where I heard the story, because he knew he hadn't told me that one, yet. When I told him about the hunt Bruce described, He just smiled, and laughed a bit, and admitted that what Bruce said was what happened exactly. He had hit that one bird with a pellet right behind the skull.

Jim has excellent eyesight, even in his 70s. I saw him miss a pheasant one day when we were hunting together, because he was using a gun he had not shot in a couple of years, and he had a bad mount. He told us to mark our calendars, because we were not likely to see him miss another pheasant in our lifetimes. He was serious. I still believe him. :shocked2: :hatsoff:
 
hanshi said:
Velocity increases expansion thus decreasing penetration. .


I have experienced this time and again when killing deer. I suppose that once a ball is traveling very slowly, it wont pass through, either.I have experienced more pass-throughs when killing deer at longer ranges (on average). On the other hand, I have found a lot of disc-shaped lead under the offside hide of deer killed at closer ranges (though, with some exceptions). Your mileage may vary!
 
I have experienced this time and again when killing deer.

See the same thing. Couple years ago I saw two big mulie does shot with .54 guns with .530 balls over 80 grains of ff goex. One was 25 yards and the other was 180. Near identical hits and they both stopped at the skin on the far side.
 
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