Pedersoli Brown Bess ?’s

[dave_person]

Now I learned something today! Ant idea of approximate numbers of the Long Land Pattern in the colonies at the outset of the war? Were these mostly housed in militia armories? Did private citizens have these as well?
Thanks for the information.
Snoot

Hi,
Brown Besses issued to colonial troops during the F&I war were owned by the crown or the colony. They were not privately owned and they were returned to stores after wartime use. Colonists may have owned some old pattern guns and muskets cobbled together from old surplus Bess parts but there would not be wide private ownership of current pattern British muskets. They would be available after patriots ransacked colonial arsenals, captured ordnance ships, and took them from captured or dead British soldiers. In the early years of the Rev War, colonists were armed with old French and Dutch muskets, old pattern King's muskets, more current pattern King's muskets confiscated from colonial government arsenals, old commercially made muskets from the f&I war, muskets locally fabricated from old British, French, or Dutch parts, locally made fowling guns and English fowlers exported to the colonies. Some from southern colonies as well as Pennsylvania and Maryland would have rifles.

dave

 

[Tumbledown]

Hi,
Brown Besses issued to colonial troops during the F&I war were owned by the crown or the colony. They were not privately owned and they were returned to stores after wartime use. Colonists may have owned some old pattern guns and muskets cobbled together from old surplus Bess parts but there would not be wide private ownership of current pattern British muskets. They would be available after patriots ransacked colonial arsenals, captured ordnance ships, and took them from captured or dead British soldiers. In the early years of the Rev War, colonists were armed with old French and Dutch muskets, old pattern King's muskets, more current pattern King's muskets confiscated from colonial government arsenals, old commercially made muskets from the f&I war, muskets locally fabricated from old British, French, or Dutch parts, locally made fowling guns and English fowlers exported to the colonies. Some from southern colonies as well as Pennsylvania and Maryland would have rifles.

dave

A big complaint by the British was stands of arms not being returned after the F&I War. Many soldiers treated them as personal property.

 

[sturmkatze]

I have re-enacted for almost 30 years. Re-enactors have and will spend lots of money on gear and guns. It can become an encompassing hobby!!!

Some. Many are not rich. For all the rich guys, there are 30 that eat ramen for weeks to buy a new helmet.

 

[lt508th]

I'm not at all in with the crowd that buys Besses, but have wondered if it would be a viable product for us to make. What do you all think? Do you think with the 250th year coming up there would be increased demand?

I am currently involved in Rev War reenacting and living history, and I can honestly say there is always someone looking to purchase either a Brown Bess or a Charleville. As we approach the 250th celebrations/observances, yes, I think you could be optimistic about sales for either model. Finding either a Charleville or a Bess seems to be very challenging right now.

 

[PathfinderNC]

I’d venture to guess that a lot of them do. Reenact-ors typically take the activity pretty seriously and most won’t bat an eye at spending thousands for period correct attire and accoutrements. Why then would they skimp on their firearm?

I’ve been Rev War reenacting for 40 years and would say that most can’t afford spending thousands of dollars on their kits. Most use Italian or Japanese guns, some Indian. And 80% don’t shoot live rounds or even clean their guns well. Just sayin.

 

[Tenring]

I’d rather have the Charleville as was supplied to the American colonists over the Bess, used by the King’s oppressors. Easier to clean, robust and reliable. But many want a Bess. Either would be a great offering for the upcoming 250th though.

The model 1795 was the first Colonial American Made Rifle and it was an exact copy of the 1777 Charleville that’s how much they thought of that weapon, Bravo I think it was one of the best out there at the time.

 

[springfield art]

Nice bird! Did you use some bluing solution on the hardware and barrel, or is that just years of use that resulted in that patina?

I would buy one!

I believe there's going to be a bit of an uptick for the 250. I was active during the 200th, before all the PC came to be; the Country was really behind it!

 

[springfield art]

I’ve been Rev War reenacting for 40 years and would say that most can’t afford spending thousands of dollars on their kits. Most use Italian or Japanese guns, some Indian. And 80% don’t shoot live rounds or even clean their guns well. Just sayin.

Re-enactors mostly are terrible on cleaning guns. I just bought an old Bi-Cen Jap Bess, just like the one I had during the 200th. It was shortened for a "Light Company" impression, and used hard. I cleaned and primped it up, and it looks nice! I will say the locks on those Bi-Cen Besses are great! Really just simply work and hold up.

 

[Snooterpup]

Well, that’s gibberish. They didn’t “supply” the American colonists. And perhaps the “King’s oppressors” that cause your need for mydol were actually enforcing the peace. Like the Union when the south tried to rebel?

Books are a neat thing. You should read some and not comic books or YouTube videos.

Obviously my “tongue in cheek” comment went completely over your irrational, judge-mental head. The founding fathers were willing to face death to rebel against their perceived “oppression”. One man’s patriot is another’s enemy. Living at the time when all these things unfolded gives that person a certain perspective on the choice to become a loyalist or a rebel.
Enforcing the peace or guilty of the Boston massacre depends on an individual's viewpoint.
Many thanks for instructing me about all those French muskets that apparently were not supplied to the Continental Army.
Incidentally, Mr. Knowledge, I have not read a comic book since I was seven. My interest in history started shortly after and expanded from the Civil War back into medieval Europe.
The post was meant to try to understand why so many are interested in the King’s musket when they were considered government property and not actually available to the private citizen. Thanks to @dave_person for his informative response. As for you, go find your own mydol bottle.

 

[springfield art]

A number of years ago, Dixie sent a flyer that listed a Pedersoli Bess kit for about 600 bucks! I ordered one, and it sat for a number of years until I finally got around to working on it. It came out fine, and is a nice-looking Bess! I haven't seen one of the Dixie Christmas flyers in a while, wonder if they still do them?

 

[springfield art]

Obviously my “tongue in cheek” comment went completely over your irrational, judge-mental head. The founding fathers were willing to face death the rebel against their perceived “oppression”. One man’s patriot is another’s enemy. Living at the time when all these things unfolded gives that person a certain perspective on the choice to become a loyalist or a rebel.
Enforcing the peace or guilty of the Boston massacre depends on an individual's viewpoint.
Many thanks instructing me about all those French muskets that apparently were not supplied to the Continental Army.
Incidentally, Mr. Knowledge, I have not read a comic book since I was seven. My interest in history started shortly after
and expanded from the Civil War and back into medieval Europe.
The post was meant to try to understand why so many are interested in the King’s musket when they were considered government property and not actually available to the private citizen. Thanks to @ dave_person for his informative response. As for you, go find your own mydol bottle.

Yeah, the guys who signed the Declaration, were putting their heads in a noose, figuratively speaking!

 

[tenngun]

I am as well. But for me, it comes down to saying I have a Brown Bess, vs just having a fowling piece. Not taking anything away from Jim. But I like the idea of owning a replica Brown Bess. Albeit it's not 100% accurate, its close enough for me.

Few of us can afford a real copy, I know I can’t. The fact is the perdisoli is as close as most people can see

 

[FlinterNick]

I'm not at all in with the crowd that buys Besses, but have wondered if it would be a viable product for us to make. What do you all think? Do you think with the 250th year coming up there would be increased demand?

You’ll get the demand for it for sure, especially if people can easily assemble them at their hobby bench.

The issue with Brown Bess is that the patterns are very specific to a given time period, so you’d have to consider a one size fits all pattern . You have long land patterns with 46” .75 - .79 caliber barrels, short land patterns that are 41-43” barrels at .75-.79 caliber.

A long land pattern Bess had around 4 distinct inter period patterns that have salient differences such as a lock without a pan bridle, banana curved plate, different rammer pipes and a steel rammer. The short land pattern Bess has at least 3-4 inter period. Patterns that. Mostly vary according to the lock. Updates, and minor hardware changes. Then you have other variants such as a sea service Bess and milita pattern Bess. With all of these patterns, i think the most desirable by reinactors is a long land Pattern 1756 as it covers all periods from 1775-1783 and has even been found to have been used by Canadian militia in troops in the War of 1812. A lot of these were made through 1790 with the later period being mostly for guard units.

Another issue with reinactors is many want a single musket to cover both rev war and French and Indian war, having one to fit all periods is complicated but generally an early pattern Dutch or Bess fits that niche.

I would suggest ditch the idea of a brown Bess and moving with a different pattern that can fit all periods with something generic according to the following specifications. Very similar to Jim Chamber’s militia musket, with a neutral lock that can be customized by an engraver or smith with a wooden or steel rod.

Assuming that you would want to avoid making many brown Bess’s with a focus on a single pattern.

I would suggest a Walnut stock with a forearm swell, a larger round faced lock 6 1/2 inches banana shaped plate, 43-44” full round barrel in .72-.75 caliber, with a baulester turned breech. Brass hardware. The hardware could be English or Dutch, of a certain style or choice with a wooden or steel rammer.

 

[springfield art]

I have a very high quality (for India-made) Bess that has a .74 cal. bore; The small difference from .75 is no doubt neglidge-able (spell?)

 

[skwerleater]

Some. Many are not rich. For all the rich guys, there are 30 that eat ramen for weeks to buy a new helmet.

Exactly! That’s what I meant. Most people I know who reenact aren’t rich or well off by any means, I certainly am not. But a lot will scrimp n save to get good gear because hey love the hobby of living history.
I would put myself in that category.

 

[anticus]

The existing options for a Bess are compromises (except for a custom build). IMHO there is desire for something more authentic at a reasonable price.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
There is a 250th bump going on right now and my shop has way more Bess requests than we can handle. I would absolutely welcome a Kibler Bess kit because I could turn out many more a year particularly for those younger reenactors who can barely afford the clothing much less a historically correct firelock. We do 1 or 2 muskets annually pro bono to help those folks get going and a Kibler kind of kit gun would make that so much faster and easier.

There is a major disconnect at living history events. Participants usually have brilliantly made historically accurate clothing and accouterments but carry historically inaccurate commercially made reproduction firelocks that don't represent 18th century workmanship at all. Often they don't fire reliably partly because the locks are poor and partly because they don't really know how to operate or care for them. Their poor performance is misleading and leave the public with the impression flintlocks were crude and unreliable. My shop has been working with several regiments trying to improve this situation but in many units, there is a reenactor culture, which is often focused on reenacting rather than actual history. That often makes change difficult to achieve. One example of that "culture" at work is the idea that the feather spring should be very light so the battery has little resistance to the strike of the flint and gets knocked out of the way faster. That nonsense is endemic in some units and contributes to their poor lock performance. Another example is the notion that the muskets were all colored dark brown or even almost black with a dull "in the wood" oil finish. Anyone who spends time examining or restoring originals in the hand knows what rubbish that idea is. Our shop has scraped that ugly dull black sludge off many muskets and finished them correctly with a slightly glossy oil varnish.

One final note about what guns were carried. Even good historians need to be careful about concluding too much from scant documentation. The author of an excellent history of the 47th regiment of foot in North America wrote the regiment was issued new muskets in 1769 and 1770. Because of those dates, he assumed they were given pattern 1769 short land musket. However, he forgot that the policy of ordnance was always to issue older arms first and use them up before sending out the latest patterns. He acknowledged his confusion about what muskets were issued when he discovered in the collection at Fort Ticonderoga, a pattern 1742 marked for the 47th regiment supposedly carried by a recruit to the 47th sent to Canada in 1776.

dave

 

[FlinterNick]

Hi,
There is a 250th bump going on right now and my shop has way more Bess requests than we can handle. I would absolutely welcome a Kibler Bess kit because I could turn out many more a year particularly for those younger reenactors who can barely afford the clothing much less a historically correct firelock. We do 1 or 2 muskets annually pro bono to help those folks get going and a Kibler kind of kit gun would make that so much faster and easier.

There is a major disconnect at living history events. Participants usually have brilliantly made historically accurate clothing and accouterments but carry historically inaccurate commercially made reproduction firelocks that don't represent 18th century workmanship at all. Often they don't fire reliably partly because the locks are poor and partly because they don't really know how to operate or care for them. Their poor performance is misleading and leave the public with the impression flintlocks were crude and unreliable. My shop has been working with several regiments trying to improve this situation but in many units, there is a reenactor culture, which is often focused on reenacting rather than actual history. That often makes change difficult to achieve. One example of that "culture" at work is the idea that the feather spring should be very light so the battery has little resistance to the strike of the flint and gets knocked out of the way faster. That nonsense is endemic in some units and contributes to their poor lock performance. Another example is the notion that the muskets were all colored dark brown or even almost black with a dull "in the wood" oil finish. Anyone who spends time examining or restoring originals in the hand knows what rubbish that idea is. Our shop has scraped that ugly dull black sludge off many muskets and finished them correctly with a slightly glossy oil varnish.

One final note about what guns were carried. Even good historians need to be careful about concluding too much from scant documentation. The author of an excellent history of the 47th regiment of foot in North America wrote the regiment was issued new muskets in 1769 and 1770. Because of those dates, he assumed they were given pattern 1769 short land musket. However, he forgot that the policy of ordnance was always to issue older arms first and use them up before sending out the latest patterns. He acknowledged his confusion about what muskets were issued when he discovered in the collection at Fort Ticonderoga, a pattern 1742 marked for the 47th regiment supposedly carried by a recruit to the 47th sent to Canada in 1776.

dave

Dave, how universal are contracted infantry muskets such as a Wilson contract musket? I don’t know much about the other regimental contracted muskets. Universal meaning covering all time periods from the French and Indian and Rev War.

 

[James Kibler]

Lots of great information. I don't know much about military guns, so this has been really helpful.

I would think our kit selling price for a Bess would be around $1450 - $1500. This is based on what we need to get for our fowler, plus some of the added complexity. It would be, however very complete and easy to assemble. Do you think this would work for the re-enacting crowd?

 

[TFoley]

Yeah, the guys who signed the Declaration, were putting their heads in a noose, figuratively speaking!

'Gentlemen, if we do not all hang together, then assuredly, we shall all hang separately'.

B. Franklin