Pedersoli ignition -- humidity problem or human problem?

[Nuthatch]

I recently picked up a Pedersoli Kentucky from a forum member. I like it. I have to work on that flinch though.

Part of my challenge was getting ignition. I can get the powder to flash in the pan just fine. But on the one time I was able to get it out, I was getting 3-5 flashes in the pan for every "boom!" I'm pretty sure it's mostly an issue of user error. Just got to figure out what errors I'm making.

The first couple of shots went off pretty well. After that, it was more like I had a stuck ball & was trickling powder into the vent hole in order for it to go off at all. I was careful to not get the priming powder too close to the vent every single time. I used my ultra-fine screenings and 2/3 F granulated powder to prime but I had the same problem either way. Toward the end, I managed to get more consistent ignition by overfilling the pan with powder. It wasn't 100% but it was way better than just dribbling enough to fill the pan level in the right-side 2/3.

When I got home, I got a 1/16" drill bit and widened the vent a tad. It didn't take out much -- the hole was pretty darned close to 1/16" as it was.

I'm sure it didn't help that we have VERY humid winters here. Humidity was probably around 90%. I've seen burnt powder residue collect moisture out of the air like nothing else -- creating a slime on cold metal surfaces. I was swabbing between shots and wiping the pan with a rag every time. But is the flash channel likely to have been getting wet with wet residue & ruining what powder was getting in there?

 

[hawkeye2]

It's possible you were pushing fouling down into the breech when you swabbed. Was the fouling soft and damp from the humidity? If you patch was too wet you can leave moisture in the barrel to dampen the powder charge. Use a patch that's almost dry. Did you use a vent pick every try?

 

[Larry (Omaha)]

I was careful to not get the priming powder too close to the vent every single time. I used my ultra-fine screenings and 2/3 F granulated ely to have been getting wet with wet residue & ruining wha?

I have two flintlocks that like the TH covered. Try the prime closer and even covering. A big must is to tamp the butt of the gun on the ground after powder and before the ball. At least two times. This settles the powder down and hopefully against the touch hole. Very important!
Larry

 

[Erwan]

Did you use a pin ?

 

[Britsmoothy]

Swabbing!
Utter nonsense.

 

[Nuthatch]

It's possible you were pushing fouling down into the breech when you swabbed. Was the fouling soft and damp from the humidity? If you patch was too wet you can leave moisture in the barrel to dampen the powder charge. Use a patch that's almost dry. Did you use a vent pick every try?

Possible? Yes. I tried a few different things to try to make sure that the channel was clear. Used a pick every time. Tried a pipe cleaner too but the pick was stiffer so it worked better. I went to swabbing pretty vigorously to try to use air to force the channel clear before loading up the next shot.

There's no commercial powder here so I'm using homebrew. My percussion guns AND this flintlock require a moist patch first or the ramrod will stick near the breach, almost like a stuck ball but with just a cleaning patch. Pyrodex isn't as bad but it will still do that in my percussion gun when it's humid -- just enough to be annoying with a field rod but not enough to end the hunt. So I'm using one moist patch (water, spit, whatever I have handy) to soften the fouling and then using a dry patch before loading up with powder.

 

[MN284]

I would suspect that the patent breech is either fouled or oily. Use a patch wrapped on a .22-cal bore brush to reach into the narrow opening of the patent breech. You may be quite surprised at the gunk you find. Give it a try. you might need several patches.

Tom

 

[Nuthatch]

I have two flintlocks that like the TH covered. Try the prime closer and even covering. A big must is to tamp the butt of the gun on the ground after powder and before the ball. At least two times. This settles the powder down and hopefully against the touch hole. Very important!
Larry

Will give that a try. The advice I had read & received so far has always been to keep the vent clear & the powder on the outer 2/3 of the pan. I guess when the rules fail, try breaking them?

From learning on percussion guns, I developed a habit of leaning my rifles toward the lock and whacking the fore-end near the lock 6 times with the heel of my hand just after loading the powder. When that didn't work, I tried tamping the butt of the rifle down on the ground but the sandy soil & wet conditions don't give it much jarring this time of year. It just gets the butt wet & dirty as the butt just sinks a couple inches in the ground Using the tailgate was the best I could do. But it didn't make any difference either way. Guess we were thinking the same on that one.

 

[ohio ramrod]

When you swab try stopping about an inch before the breech to prevent pushing fouling into the patent breech.

 

[GoodRabbitPilgrim]

Before you go out for a shot, run isopropyl alcohol down the bore to clean out any oil etc. This will help.

I wouldn't put priming up against the flash hold, it will go off but it'll fuse and take a while which won't help your flinch.

Keep at it, pedersoli are good guns and you'll find the sweet spot eventually.

 

[hanshi]

Several things could be going on. Swabbing between shots is asking for trouble and I've never done that. By all means put the prime right up to the touch hole, this has been proven to give the best ignition. Pipe cleaners are great for clearing patent breeches before going out to shoot. Subs don't work reliably in a flintlock as they are designed to be fed only black powder. Black powder doesn't absorb any significant moisture but the fouling from any shooting will quickly get wet in a humid environment. You are correct in wiping the pan after each shot. This keeps moisture from wetting the next shots pan prime. It's not that unusual for the vent liner to protrude into the bore where it snags patches. Consider removing the liner and shortening it slightly and also make sure the inside of it is well coned. And as already suggested use alcohol to remove all traces of oil in the patent breech.

 

[deerstalkert]

i also have a flintlock that requires the powder right up to the vent for "every time" ignition.
i also have two others that it don't matter where the prime is.
i have not perceived any "fuse" firing, but then the wife says i am a most unperceptive sort a fellow . how do i know she got a hair cut and perm? always looks the same to me, just like powder covering the hole or not.

 

[SDSmlf]

I recently picked up a Pedersoli Kentucky from a forum member. I like it. I have to work on that flinch though.

Part of my challenge was getting ignition. I can get the powder to flash in the pan just fine. But on the one time I was able to get it out, I was getting 3-5 flashes in the pan for every "boom!" I'm pretty sure it's mostly an issue of user error. Just got to figure out what errors I'm making.

The first couple of shots went off pretty well. After that, it was more like I had a stuck ball & was trickling powder into the vent hole in order for it to go off at all. I was careful to not get the priming powder too close to the vent every single time. I used my ultra-fine screenings and 2/3 F granulated powder to prime but I had the same problem either way. Toward the end, I managed to get more consistent ignition by overfilling the pan with powder. It wasn't 100% but it was way better than just dribbling enough to fill the pan level in the right-side 2/3.

When I got home, I got a 1/16" drill bit and widened the vent a tad. It didn't take out much -- the hole was pretty darned close to 1/16" as it was.

I'm sure it didn't help that we have VERY humid winters here. Humidity was probably around 90%. I've seen burnt powder residue collect moisture out of the air like nothing else -- creating a slime on cold metal surfaces. I was swabbing between shots and wiping the pan with a rag every time. But is the flash channel likely to have been getting wet with wet residue & ruining what powder was getting in there?

I have your Pedersoli Kentucky’s little brother, a Pedersoli Scout in 32 caliber. Mine likely has a similar breech. I live in North Carolina, and yes there is plenty of humidity here. Your fail to fire flash in the pan issue is a pretty common topic on this forum, with common causes being cleaning fluid/lubricant in the chambered breech, residue in the chambered breech from swabbing, or maybe an undersized touchhole. You have added the not as common homemade powder to the mix, but if it is igniting in your pan, I believe you should be able to get reliable ignition of the main charge. A number of good ideas already posted.

If this were my problem gun, here are the steps I would take, one at a time, to resolve it. Good luck with whatever you try.

1. Make sure no cleaning fluid or lubricant is in the breech. Suggest a deep cleaning to make sure any old residue (burning oil with blackpowder leaves a tar like residue that normal water and soap may not remove). Once you are sure the bore and chambered breech clean, let it dry overnight without any type of rust protection with the muzzle down before loading. You want to start with a clean dry bore.
2. Forget ‘traditional’ swabbing for now. Instead, load the powder, followed by a tight wad of some sort on the powder. I use 3/8” diameter 1/8” thick felt in my 32 caliber. Next use an almost sloppy wet patch with your roundball. The wet patch should overcome any commercial or homemade powder residue, and the wad will keep the powder safe from the extra wet patch. I can shoot my 32 all day using this method. I am using 12-15 grains of powder.
3. Some will disagree with me, but I have the best consistency igniting the main charge with a 5/64” diameter touch hole. I also chamfer the back side of the touch (I use a number 2 center drill) to keep the 5/64” diameter as short as possible between pan an the powder. Get extra touch liners if you are nervous about opening it up, they are inexpensive.
   
   
   

 

[rafterob]

Sounds like you somehow got some goo in the breech area. Once that develops from a mixture of fouling and (usually) excess oil in the breech, it needs a cleaning to remedy the situation. So prior to first fire make sure you have run a dry patch or two down the barrel, then fire off one pan full of prime. Be careful not to soak the barrel with oil after cleaning. If you are oiling rather heavily, store the rifle muzzle down. Swabbing; If you choose to swab after every shot use a damp patch. Push it down and let it sit a few seconds and then withdraw it. Flip it over and do it again. Follow that with a dry patch, both sides. Do not "pump" when swabbing, that can force debris into the chamber.
I learned all of this by following the "good" advice given here. There is plenty of witchcraft offered also.
I had a similar experience to yours when I first started with my flintlock. After a number of failure to fire attempts I decided to clean it and poured a little water in the barrel. Nothing came out the touch hole. I ran a patched jag down the bore and when enough pressure built up it forced about a 3/4" worm of black goo out. I had been using Ballistol up to that point in the barrel after cleaning. Talked to some other guys with similar experience from Ballistol so I switched to a gun oil inside the barrel. I use the Ballistol for external cleaning and oiling. I have not had the issue recur since I made the switch.

 

[Kansas Kid]

Load your powder and patched ball as normal but use a jag and cleaning patch to run the ball down and seat it. Now you’re wiping the bore without pushing the crud into the breech. Thumping and priming up to touch is good also.

 

[Capnball]

I recently picked up a Pedersoli Kentucky from a forum member. I like it. I have to work on that flinch though.

Part of my challenge was getting ignition. I can get the powder to flash in the pan just fine. But on the one time I was able to get it out, I was getting 3-5 flashes in the pan for every "boom!" I'm pretty sure it's mostly an issue of user error. Just got to figure out what errors I'm making.

The first couple of shots went off pretty well. After that, it was more like I had a stuck ball & was trickling powder into the vent hole in order for it to go off at all. I was careful to not get the priming powder too close to the vent every single time. I used my ultra-fine screenings and 2/3 F granulated powder to prime but I had the same problem either way. Toward the end, I managed to get more consistent ignition by overfilling the pan with powder. It wasn't 100% but it was way better than just dribbling enough to fill the pan level in the right-side 2/3.

When I got home, I got a 1/16" drill bit and widened the vent a tad. It didn't take out much -- the hole was pretty darned close to 1/16" as it was.

I'm sure it didn't help that we have VERY humid winters here. Humidity was probably around 90%. I've seen burnt powder residue collect moisture out of the air like nothing else -- creating a slime on cold metal surfaces. I was swabbing between shots and wiping the pan with a rag every time. But is the flash channel likely to have been getting wet with wet residue & ruining what powder was getting in there?

Before you load, use a good dry patch on the barrel. You want that powder (3F) to fall down the barrel and a slight bump should level it in the chamber. I only use a brush on the pan. Using a rag is likely to transfer moisture and debris into the touch hole. Pick the touch hole as needed to keep it clean. Carry an extra liner! Use 4F powder in the pan only. After you close the frizzen over the powder, lean the gun to the left a touch and give the stock, (just forward of the trigger guard) a slight bump with your right hand. This will ramp the ignition powder up to the touch hole. On top of that? Maybe watch a couple videos on napping flint and aligning flint in the jaws to give you the best spark. Moisture has been the bane of muzzleloaders since.........well since there's been black powder!
That's where the term "Keep your powder dry" came from. I'm sure other people have offered similar advice. This isn't the only way, it's the way that works for me. Maybe it'll work for you! I have the same gun, bought it off a forum member as well. Love it! So much so, I bought the exact match pistol to. Too much fun!

 

[Texas Gil]

I have had some ignition problems in the past. Then I read somewhere that back in the day flintlock shooters placed a bird feather into the touch hole before loading powder down the barrel and kept it there until the load was complete. They primed after removing the feather that left a open channel to the main charge. Works every time for me!
Now I’m constantly picking up feathers that will fit in the touch hole and keep one stuck in the touch hole ready to load.

 

[Grenadier1758]

@Nuthatch, I suspect that the ignition problems stem from both humidity and human errors.

The main charge fails to go off because there is something blocking the path from the pan to the main charge. Humidity can be making a sludge from the black powder fouling in Pedersoli's chambered breech. The human error comes from pushing fouling from the barrel into the chambered breech so the humidity can make a thick sludge.

The good news is that once you are aware that the problem is due to fouling in the chambered breech and in the touch hole, human intervention can help. You will need a 22 caliber brush. Look for one with the wires looped through the base of the brush. Wrap the brush with a rubbing alcohol dampened patch to clean the fouling from the chamber. Soapy water works for this too but save that for cleaning the rifle after shooting is done. Alcohol evaporates quickly so the powder for subsequent shots won't be dampened. I use a dental flossing pick to clear the touch hole. It's much smaller than most pipe cleaners so it goes through the touch hole much easier and being plastic won't wear on the touch hole.

I do like to wipe the bore with a rubbing alcohol dampened patch between shots. I have flat breeches so there is no chamber to worry about, but I can fill the flash hole with fouling. The dental pick solves that problem as I pick the touch hole before loading.

One potential human error comes after the rifle is cleaned. You've done a great job of cleaning. Patches are coming out white or nearly white. The bore has been dried and then oiled for storage. Store the rifle muzzle down so excess oil can drain from that chambered breech. You don't want that oil to sit in the breech. Even if you are storing the rifle muzzle down after cleaning, it is a good procedure to wipe the barrel and the chambered breech with the rubbing alcohol dampened patch before starting a shooting session.

 

[mmb617]

I'll agree that it sounds like you have some gunk in the breech and remedies for that have been discussed. I'd also recommend some experimentation with how much powder is in the pan and where it's placed in relation to the touchhole. Some of my guns like very little powder in the pan, others like more. They also vary in how they like the powder to be banked in the pan and how close it comes to the touchhole. The only way to know is by trying different ways.

 

[Brokennock]

I have had some ignition problems in the past. Then I read somewhere that back in the day flintlock shooters placed a bird feather into the touch hole before loading powder down the barrel and kept it there until the load was complete. They primed after removing the feather that left a open channel to the main charge. Works every time for me!
Now I’m constantly picking up feathers that will fit in the touch hole and keep one stuck in the touch hole ready to load.

I do this. Usually with a piece of brass wire.
I swore by this practice for years. In my smoothrifle which has a vent liner, I never had a flash in the pan failure to fire once I started doing this. Never.
Last summer I returned to my Fusil des Chase that had been put aside for a few years. It has a direct drilled vent, slightly coned on the outside, much bigger hole....
With 3f as my main charge, this practice continued to work fine. But, when I tried some 2f loads, I started to get failures to fire when plugging the hole throughout the loading process.
Once again, individual guns seem to have individual needs.