Peep sights on Muzzleloaders

[David Bickish]

I went to a rondy and was told no peep sights they weren't traditional. Another man there claimed they went back to the early 16-1700 on American made PA, and Ky. rifles. I am confused can anyone give an accurate answer to the subject? How far back do peep sights go? Were they on flint locks made in the colonies in the 1700's? or is it true that they aren't traditional in those early days.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Some early matchlocks had peep sights as did crossbows. They aren't exactly new, but they aren't exactly common on early American longrifles either. It would be fine to use one on your rifle when hunting or just target shooting, and then remove it for juried events.

 

[Toomuch_36]

As Russ T. Frizzen mentioned, peep sights were used well before the flint rifle came into being even if not widely used. Some clubs or events have restrictions such as you have encountered for several reasons (usually because of lack of research). Some ways around this is to have a sight system that can be easily converted, use an alternate rifle with acceptable sights, or (unfortunately) avoid these particular clubs. Remember at these events, as elseware HOUSE RULES APPLY.

Shoot Flint
..........
Toomuch

 

[CoyoteJoe]

That is pretty much a standing rule at "primitive" events. At some of the bigger events which host both a primitive shoot and a paper target match you may find peep sights welcome on the paper range but open sights only on the primitive range. On rifles used both for hunting and rendezvous I fit the open rear sight loosely in its' dovetail and secure it with a small set screw so it can be removed and replaced to an index mark on the sight base and barrel.
It is true that peep sights predate firearms but have never been common, they still are not common today. The "open sight only" rule is intended to keep a level playing field and is not really about "tradition" at all.

 

[Bountyhunter]

I believe that the basis behind that is that the peep sight gives sighting advantages. I believe I read that in Shoot Magazine. If I remember correctly they said that it was the consensus of most shoots that a peep sight functioned as a zero power telescope, concentrating the image to better advantage. Since only a few shooters would know that and come with peeps, that it gave them unfair advantage over the other shooters who adhered to the rules and used traditional sights.

So it is everybody uses peeps or nobody uses peeps. Seems fair to me.

 

[BrownBear]

I got this theory about why folks didn't live very long back in those days. Heck, it's easy. They starved to death cuzz they couldn't see their primitive sights once they passed 50.

Bunch of us old geezers can't see primitive sights so good any more, and peep sights help keep us in the woods. If we ain't welcome at the rondy's in spite of what history sezz, we'll head into the hills instead.

Just remember that everyone here is going to get older and have trouble seeing their sights one day. Don't let your body get soft, cuzz you're going to be spending lots more time in the hills once you can't shoot at the rondys any more.

 

[tg]

I think that often the issue of a peep is a peep, comes to play here, the peeps of the 18th century were not the peeps you buy from Lyman today, no more than the Kentucky rifle of that period is the same as the (*&%-line ML because they both load from the front.

 

[Bountyhunter]

I propose this simply as Bills Theory.

I propose that the rifleman of days gone past shot enough that he did not actually use the sights that often. I find that--when I shoot a lot, I find myself pulling up on target with my eyes on the target, knowing that my hands are pointing that gun at the spot that I intend to hit. I know for certain that if I am forced to go into the bottoms and hunt the timber because of weather or whatever, that I instinct shoot, I dont sight. I dont think that the old timers would have spent a lot of time sitting at a bench squinting through a peep sight. They would have brought that gun to the cheek, and looking over the barrel at whatever was about to die, pulled the trigger much as you do when shotgunning pheasant or other upland game birds. It would not matter in the least if my shotgun had a sight on it. I walk the weed patch, three cocks take flight, three shells later, three cocks are in the bag.

I think that the sight issues are born to target shooters who want a smaller "one hole". I feel that hunters know their rifles well enough that they do know that the sights are there for a long shot or ambush, but I dont think that, that much importance is placed upon them, because they already know where that minute of meat shot is going.

 

[Bob Miller]

A good aperature sight [peep] is deadly accurate. If shooting at a standard round type bull, the eye will centre the target,
and if you have an adjustable aperature, it is even more accurate. ie, I use a "peep" ie vernier tang sight, for 1000 yd.
target shooting with my muzzleloader. I prefer an open type sight for hunting, but for target shooting, I can consistantly score higher using a peep.

 

[ronrryan]

For a number of years one of our shooters was a ww2 pacific theater paratrooper who shot a "doc" white flinter with a peep sight, added when his eyesight got too bad to do without. kept him shooting for years, and quite well, too. of course this was just a friendly group, not a juried competition.i used peep sights on cartridge guns for woods hunting, by preference.not on my flinters, though. good smoke, ron in fl

 

[horsesoldier03]

Sounds to me like these Jury Events for TRUE PURIST are a little to finicky for my taste anyways. Probably the reason you dont see to many people attending their shoots. Of course they would probably only balk at me more when they seen me bringing in a Lyman GPR. They dont want a non purist beating them out at a competition shoot anyways!

 

[renovato]

Yeah, I think the hardcore juried events aren't for me either, but there are a lot of rondies that aren't so uptight. I do understand them wanting to keep a level playing field though, and peeps do give the shooter an advantage over primitive open sights. As much as I grumble about the thread counters, I do support fairness in competition and this rule makes sense from that aspect.

 

[Zoar]

Interesting.

I guess my take on it is:

Short range or if you are using bird or buck shot then pointing is what many a hunter does. Yet, when aiming at a beast with a single round ball at any distance beyond 25 yards I definitely use my sights and, for me at least, I could not imagine pointing my rifle toward the game and puling the trigger anbd expecting to have hit it properly. And I imagine that was true of many hunters through the centuries 1600-2008... and for others like I am---I am not a bench shooter at all---I'm always shooting off-hand, and here my sights allow me to get what I call "good accuracy", consistently less than 2 inches at 50-60 yards, and about 2 and 1/2 to 3 inches at 90-100 yards. My eyes in younger days could achieve that easily using regular v or grooved iron sights; now my aging eyes benefit from a peep sight, especially in LOW LIGHT. And that for me is the VITAL DIFFERENCE and THE reason for peep sights for hunting... Most game I see at dawn or dusk and I would guess in the 1700's it was the same and those hunters with aging eyes then got the same as "we" do now with peep sights. It helps aging eyes see the sights in dim light or less than ideal light conditions such as in heavy cover, on a grey day, or even when the bright sun is behind the game, etc... a whole slew of conditions were peeps help. Also I learned important marksmanship skills on the USMC rifle range with an M-16... I did things there with a peep sight that I never could have done withOUT a peep sight. ...Lordy, I do respect peep sights!! :bow: :bow:

Can I shoot near ragged hole groups at 50 yards with the front blade and buckhorn rear sight my Lyman 54 cal came with? Yes, with the right light conditions. Can I do it in crappy light conditions? Not as well as I can with a peep added. Did they have peep sights in 1700-1800's? Yes, from many accounts they did, and I would bet the guys with aging eyes or macular degeneration made a point to add a peep sight to their hunting guns... :v

 

[Bountyhunter]

Yes, for the purist who is seeking a smaller group at 1000 yards, I understand that. (I only live 100 miles from Whittington and I go to the long range matches, so I do understand.) Also, nobody but nobody around here would be caught setting in a tree stand....it just aint the thing to do. So hunting here is fair chase. On the ground on your feet. Walk to a likely area and then look it over, then get down in it and push it out. What I'm saying is, in fair chase hunting, if I am in the brush and come upon an animal that scores enough to shoot, then the window of opportunity is very short. One second would likely be a lifetime there. If you push that animal out of his bed, he isnt going to stand there modeling for you. You have maybe a half a second to evaluate that opportunity, swing on it and decide whether to pull the trigger for a one shot one kill opportunity.

Sometimes you will push a buck out to the other side of a canyon that will stop thinking he is safe and look at you long enough to home in on him, but what I was saying, was that in the less than 50 yard hunt, the old timers most likely didnt have long enough to worry about sights.

Now that gives me an idea, I might just know where there might be a couple of anti-terrist quick locks that have peep sights on them. I'm gonna go borrow one them out of the bear cave and take my glasses off and see what happens there. Obviously, the explorer of 1815 did not have trifocals so that he could watch the runway, read sectional charts, and focus on his glass panel all at the same time. :haha:

 

[tg]

". Did they have peep sights in 1700-1800's? Yes, from many accounts they did, and I would bet the guys with aging eyes or macular degeneration made a point to add a peep sight to their hunting guns..."

it would likely be very difficult to find a reference in the 1700's to the average hunter adding a peep sight to a common hunting gun, the common solution was to move the rear sight, I am all for the use of peeps on ML's if they are a peep common to the time period, otherwise you are just modernizing a ML, and this is why most use them for hunting.... to get an edge over the primitive sights and the whole point of the ML season was to take a step back from modern stuff to add a degree of challenge. In competition at events it only makes sense to use the tools of the time so to speak,and try to have a level field of play.

 

[mazo kid]

As Russ T. Frizzen mentioned, peep sights were used well before the flint rifle came into being even if not widely used. Some clubs or events have restrictions such as you have encountered for several reasons (usually because of lack of research). Some ways around this is to have a sight system that can be easily converted, use an alternate rifle with acceptable sights, or (unfortunately) avoid these particular clubs. Remember at these events, as elseware HOUSE RULES APPLY.

Shoot Flint
..........
Toomuch

As Toomuch says, "house rules apply". I've been shooting muzzleloaders since 1972 and any rendezvous or club shoot I've ever attended has ALWAYS specified.....open sights and round balls ONLY!! Nothing to do with PC, just keeps everybody on the same playing field.Heck, at some events even full buckhorn sights aren't allowed. Does it affect my shooting? Yeah, to some degree, but then I am not out for blood like some guys, and as long as I can shoot a respectable score I'm happy. Emery

 

[Stophel]

Back to the original question which was simply a "did they use them" query.

Basically, no. Peep sights existed and are rather ancient, used on crossbows primarily. The evil Turks used peeps on their guns during the period, and they had wall guns with a big tall rear "leaf" with several peep holes for different ranges. But, were they used on longrifles? Basically, No. They weren't used on German rifles either (have not seen one yet, anyway), though I have seen ONE Swiss rifle which MIGHT have a peep sight on it, I can't tell. It has a really tall blade on the rear sight, and I'm just presuming it's a peep, can't see it, plus, I don't know how old the sight really is...

The "Diopter" was added to a lot of guns in the 19th century, and it's not so much a sight as it is the equivalent of shooting glasses with the blackout peep diopter. You still used the regular sights, but the diopter was used to help you focus.

 

[Zoar]

QUOTE--- "As Russ T. Frizzen mentioned, peep sights were used well before the flint rifle came into being even if not widely used."

So how can that statement be true and the one above that says 'basically no' they were not used?

It seems to me they both can't simultaneously be true. One can say 'they were used, but not widely' however that is not the same as 'bascially no'. To me when a person says they were used but not widely, I think of a lower percentage but still a percentage of guns had them. But bascially no, to me implies, 'no'. which is quite a ways from a percentage.

I am just curious about this matter. I need to make a choice of using or not using a peep sight on my gun AND being period (flint rifle) correct. From what I've read peep sights did exist on some guns.... and that is not bascially no, that is basically yes to me. But I am hardly an expert and I am only going by some statements I've read on gun styles and developments in the flintlock and pre-flintlock era.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

I said that peep sights were in existence very early and that the best solution was to use one for everything but a juried event. Chris said that peep sights were basically not found on long rifles. Both statements are true. Did someone, in period, put some form of peep sight on a long rifle? It's possible, but you'd look long and hard to find a reference to it. And the peep sight that I referred to doesn't look anything like the peep sight that we think of today. It would have been a remarkable invention in its day, but it looks decidedly old fashioned today.

 

[Stophel]

You want a percentage? OK, I'll say maybe one out of 10,000 18th century German rifles and 0 out of 10,000 American rifles. :grin:

Also, I've never seen the innards of a "tube" sight, as was somewhat common on wheellock (and matchlock) rifles. Best I can tell, it is basically a shaded notch sight, not really an aperture, but I'm not sure about that at all... :hmm: Not gonna find one of those on an American longrifle either...