Peep sights on Muzzleloaders

[Stophel]

By the way, here's the one and only POSSIBLE peep sight I have seen on an 18th century rifle. The top gun. A Swiss rifle, say 1740. The rear sight blade is quite tall, and I'm making a BIG assumption that it could be a peep. I also cannot verify that the sight is original to the gun. If so, it seems to be unique. I'm beginning to think that is is some form of buckhorn. The Germans use the word "Kimme" for a notch rear sight (which is what it is called in the description), and I'm not sure they use that term for a peep....

Oh, and note also the length of the barrel...46 1/4". From what VERY LITTLE I have been able to ascertain, this might be common on Swiss rifles.

Again. you will see bona fide peeps on Turkish/Arab guns which are in the form of a large, thick, triangular plate mounted on top of the breech of the barrel and have a series of holes drilled for different ranges. They are not exactly sleek nor compact. You might perhaps find an occasional European gun done this way in imitation of the Turks, or they might possibly have reused a Turkish barrel with a sight like this (they were also damascus barrels, and using a barrel captured from their great enemy was quite stylish). I can see if I can come up with a photo of this type of sight for you. I just don't have one on line at the moment.

 

[Stophel]

I found this one here. An Ottoman Turk rifle. Maybe you can see what I mean. The large triangular lump of metal on top of the breech, partly obscured by the cock, is the sight.

Lifted from the Hermann-Historica Auktionshaus site. Poke around there and you can find more, I'm sure. www.hermann-historica.com

 

[flintlock75]

In general peep sights have been used on firearms since the mid 1500's. I have several books with pictures of german rifles that have a peep site on them. The peep sights that are shown are just a short 1" -1 1/2" hollow tube mounted at the rear of the barrel. I have seen a wall gun in a museum in Montrial Canada that has a rear tube/peep site mounted on it. This gun was dated to the late 1600's. There is plenty of evidence that peep sights were in use. But also as others have said they were not known to be common in America. The rules of today calling for a "level playing field"
are modern, back in the day you used whatever you had regardless of sights. If our ancesters had not sought to improve on inventions to make them better, we would still be using matchlocks and spears to hunt with.

 

[Zoar]

geeez, so true...

Or nearly as bad as that---we'd still be using flintlocks and recurved bows to hunt with... er.... aaaa, I guess WE are using flintlocks and recurved bows to hunt with! :haha:

Good thread, very enlightening and entertaining.

I love the old rifles with peeps.

 

[tg]

I have an old book"The Fireside Book of Guns" that shows one gun that appears to beand is refered to as a German Jaeger, it definately looks to be circa 18th century and it has a peep located on the wrist behind the tang, there is no ay of knowing when it was put on, but all in all they would be very rare and nothing like what we use today. Many like/use peeps on ML's but from a historical point of view it would be hard to argue the use from a re-enactors position. This is one of many things that can conflict with being PC if that is the goal as we grow older, I think the best approach is to use one if needed, but not try to argue it into the history books, this can only make things confusing for those who are just starting the journey towards a PC/HC direction. Many use them as an edge as they can be usefull in low light and possibly extend ones striking distance over the open type found on original guns, and achieve greater accuracy as well, to each his own, but once again let's not re-write the histoty books in an attempt to justify things we prefer over the original gear...once again it is best not to send people who are looking for the right answers down the wrong path.

 

[Stophel]

That's a diopter. 19th century. LOTS of older guns have had them added. Even wheel locks, which were used well into the 19th century (it is technically a superior lock to a flintlock, assuming good quality pyrites, and ignition is faster, since you don't have to wait for the cock to fall...eventually I'll get around to building one...). There will usually be a little short square post mounted on the wrist behind the barrel tang, into which the diopter is fitted. I think there's usually a thumbscrew where you can adjust elevation. I don't know precisely how far back these go, but still 19th century.

 

[jbwilliams3]

Would someone be so kind as to show a picture of what original open sights looked like? I have looked around on Am. Historical services etc. since reading this post and cannot find a clear picture for what our rifles should be if we are trying to be HC. I'm a young'n and this is the first time I've heard of this particular controversy- how frustrating!

 

[CoyoteJoe]

This is obviously not an original gun but is my idea of a simple "primitive peep".
The short answer is "they were rare but they were there". I have seen a few photos of 18th century to early 19th century flintlocks with peep sights. By the mid 19th century they were quite common on target rifles and on "target/hunting rifles". I think the difference is that prior to the mid 19th century there are very few dedicated target rifles, at least in America.
Early open sights were pretty basic, a very low rear with just a scratch of a notch and an even lower front, perhaps 1/16" above the barrel. They were dovetailed to the barrel and could be knocked from side to side for windage adjustment but generally had no means of adjusting elevation. Rear sights were mostly iron while the front blade was often silver, brass, ivory or bone. They really were a poor aiming device under any circumstance. In dim light it is impossible to see through the tiny rear notch and in bright sunlight the heat waves off the barrel make it impossible to see anything at all. Maybe with the rifle in the shade and the target in the sun, maybe one could draw a decent bead, maybe. I love longrifles but do equip mine with better sights, open or peep.

 

[Stophel]

Of course the styles of the sight varies with the "school" of the gun, but in general, think flat top rear with a SMALL V notch. (Some 18th c. German rifles have "semi buckhorn" rear sights. I don't know if this was ever really done here or not.)

The only photos I have ready at the moment are of a Massachusetts rifle, ca 1820 or so.

again, think SMALL.

 

[LRB]

Common, uncommon, or non-existant, I would say that when one reaches the point that he cannot shoot with open sights, try the peep. Not one of the modern types, but homemade, or something that does not look too conspiculously out of place. OK, maybe you can't enter competition with it, but you can still enjoy shooting, or even hunting. It may not be much longer before I have to do it myself. I have made a couple for others using 1/16" steel bent to an L in profile, attached with a screw up front, a screw in a cross slot toward the rear for windage, a brass tack head for the eyepiece, and an elevation screw that rides on the tang. They both worked very well. One could make it even simpler by eliminating all the adjustments, and just work the front sight to it. It could be made much stronger that way, and less apt to be knocked out of alignment.

 

[Oldnamvet]

I know a guy who shoots long range competition with his 25# flintlock. I thought it had a peep sight but his had a slot cut into the top. Evidently where he shoots, that makes it no longer a peep sight by definition since the circle is broken. The slot is pretty narrow so it still functions as a peep sight for him.

 

[tg]

I was to the point of moving the rear sights more forward on my rifles when I discovered the world of smoothbores and no longer worry about the type of rear sight, as long as I can see the deer and the end of my barrel I should be fine.

 

[mmahlock]

Among other new-fangled terms for sights, there is one called the Diopta,or telegraph sight; but of which I entertain a poor opinion. However, this I am certain that whilst the man is taking his aim through this famous invention, I could shoot him three times over. From the description of it I consider it both cumbersome and troublesome, and very liable to be easily displaced. Neither the French, Germans, nor Americans, ever use such a ridiculous advantage, as it is called. They use one back sight, which is indeed most certain; and the front sight should be placed as near the nose end of the barrel as possible, and not as I have occasionally seen them two or three inches off;- this never could have been invented by a practical gun maker, or even by a practical rifleman.

Ezekiel Baker, Remarks on Rifle Guns, 8th Edition, 1823.

I thought you might like a perspective on peep sights from the period.

 

[DENNIS B]

I'm 65 yrs old and as much as I hated to do it I instaled a peep on one of my flintlocks..A couple years ago I lost a shot at a decent buck,forty or fiftey yards away ,I just couldn't see my front sight under less than perfect lighting conditions..It gets to the point where you might as well stay home ,when your just takeing your gun for a walk and can't see to aim your rifle..Now with the peep I've got a chance ,may be I'll still be able to make meat with my smoke pole..DENNIS B

 

[Zoar]

Dennis---I hear you. Dim light and macular degeneration makes hunting with regular iron sites just about a waste of time. Peeps and other alterations really do help. I was bow hunting last year and I sat in my tree as the sun set while a big buck wandered to within range. But by the time he got close enough, I could no longer see my sights. I could see him, but not my sights!!! Nothing sadder than that when you've been hunting for a couple of hours and the prey come within shooting range but the eyes fail you. I like the peep I recently attached on my Lyman's 54 flintlock. But I still need to shoot with it more in different light conditions BEFORE I can sing any more praises or woes. Thus far it seems to work well.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Just make sure you open up that peep sight for low light conditions, or use a ghost sight, by taking the peep out of the mount, and using the hole in the mount as your sight. Peep sights to help the eye focus better, but too small a hole will make it even more difficult to see your sights, and target than open sights, when sunlight is failing, or absent.

I am 61, and I have found using a ghost ring sight, by simply removing the aperture from the mount on my peep sights, so I am looking through a 1/4" diameter hole allows me to see the game, and my front sight in early daylight, or late twilight.

Be careful about when " Legal " daylight ends, so you aren't caught hunting after its legal to do so. You will be treated as a poacher if you violate those rules.

 

[Zoar]

Paul--- Sage advice all the way around there.

Peep site is good for aging eyes but not any use if the peep hole is too small.

The way my lyman is set up I use the largest dia peep the kit come siwth with the standard issue buckhorn site and front blade site intact. The big peep hole just seems to give me "focused light" in seeing the other sights when dim. But agreed can't shoot in the dark and wouldn't shoot in the dark. (Thank fully I don't need meat that badly and I'm too much of a sportsman to shoot at night.) However one option is just to use the peep mount like a big ghost ring although my eyesight is not that bad,,,,,,, yet! hahaha

 

[paulvallandigham]

I use the peep sight ( drilled open a bit) when at the range on a sunny day to zero the sights for the load I am going to use. Then, if its cloudy, overcast, or I am going out to stand before dawn, I remove the aperature and put it in my shirt pocket. If nothing comes by, and I am hunting during the day , with sunlight, I have put the aperature back in the sight. At dusk, or if clouds appear, I take it back out. I find the Lyman, and Redfield aperature sights very useful in a variety of lighting conditions, if I just pay attention.

When MY eyes get bad enough, I will not hesitate to put a scope sight on my gun so I can continue to hunt for my remaining years.

 

[Zoar]

I hear you about doing what you need to do so you can continue to hunt. It is only a sin if you have good eyes and don't need it.

Peep sites look good on just about all guns, in my opinion. I certainly understand at a re-enactment or period correct event you are not going to put a modern peep on a muzzleloader, but as a hunting tool they can be quite valuable and not ugly.

 

[FearNot]

TG came close to a possible solution... is there some law somehwere that says ya can't take the rear sight off of a rifled firelock and shoot it like we do smoothe bores? Does anyone out there do that (shoot a rear-sightless rifled firelock)?