Permethrin Concerns..............!!!!

[Skychief]

Hello All.

Here, and on other forums, I have read much about making .5% Permethrin solutions from more concentrated bulk containers.

Of course, these are then used to treat clothing to keep ticks off of the user.

I have also read a lot of conjecture regarding this "do-it-yourself" method as possibly being unsafe.

Some will say that the "bulk" sources of Permethrin are meant for vegetation insecticide. Others mention that some "bulk" Permethrin is intended for animal use.

Some go on to say that some Permethrins are a known carcinogen besides being neurotoxins.

I have also read that some Permethrin is petroleum based and others are water based (and these water based ones may work better on clothing).

Many will say that the Sawyer brand and other ready-to-use types are made with a specific recipe that includes an agent that allows bonding with clothing, while bulk do-it-yourself solutions will not have the benefit of this "cloth bonder".

It seems to go on and on and on.....Confusingly so.

I had Lyme disease in 1990 and would not wish it on anybody! While this is true, I want to be assured that any mixture that I might make will be safe to use on my clothes, and effective as well.

Lyme and Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever seem to be running rampant in my area this year. It is a worry to anyone that ventures into the woods.

Beyond hunting, I am in the woods with my work everyday, so......I am hoping to find some answers, backed with some sort of authority that brand "X" concentrated Permethrin, diluted to "Y" ratio will keep the ticks at bay and pose no threat to my health (now or in the future).

I have had good results with Sawyer's Permethrin spray, but would love to find a less costly (yet, safe and effective) replacement.

I am hoping someone a lot smarter than me can help cut through the "Bull", rhetoric, internet misinformation, etc. and shed some true light on my concerns.

Can any of you help with some facts?

Thanks VERY much in advance!

Best regards, Skychief.

 

[roundball]

Not qualified to answer some of those specific questions but this is what I've used for years and haven't had a tick on me since. IE: just spent a dozen days after turkey...zero ticks. Most folks on my hunting forum use it.

http://www.amazon.com/Permethrin-C...TF8&qid=1368962810&sr=8-2&keywords=permethrin

I mix it 2X strength store bought, 3-4 ounces / gallon.
Put it in a 2 gallon tank sprayer (weed sprayer).
I lay a couple sets of clothes out on a sheet of plastic and literally soak / saturate them.
Let them lay there for a couple days to dry out.
After 3 washings I retreat.

 

[FishDFly]

Permethrin

I have a shelf full of cans with aerosol cans with Permethrin.

The warning from my father, who was a doctor, was do not get the Permethin on your skin, period.

We are in the woods daily and what we do is:

1. Spray "Off" of your pant legs and around your
waste to dampen the fabricate a bit.
2. Put Seven dust in an old sock and tamp your
pant legs and around your waste with the sock.

No ticks.

Has worked for decades.

Second thought, I do not have any cans here with Permethrin to check the warninglabel, but you really need an MSDS sheet to anwer your questions or call the National Poison Control Center and ask them, sure beats conjecture.

 

[roundball]

Can any of you help with some facts?

http://www.tickinfo.com/permethrin.htm

Another reference link I've posted before about Permethrin, includes the use of it in Military uniforms, etc

 

[Skychief]

Hey Roundball!

I read the link last night, again.

Seems to give me more questions than answers. You have read my concerns above.

Are there any chemists, doctors, etc amongst us?

I can read MSDS (and the like) all day long, but, it doesn't clear my concerns and questions about "mixing my own". :hmm:

Thanks, Skychief.

 

[roundball]

Well, a final comment as far as mixing goes.
Store bought brands have .5% (half percent) strength...which is 1.5ozs per gallon.

We order the concentrate because it's so much cheaper that way, and that also allows us to make it a little stronger.
I / we double the strength of ours to 1% strength, which is 3ozs / gallon.

A couple dozen folks on my hunting forum have done this several years now, get no ticks, have no problems.
Beyond that, I can't help you further, sorry

 

[Skychief]

:thumbsup:

 

[majg1234]

Not an expert by any means but a practical user of deet and permethrin both in the military and Civy use.I am (was) a chemical, biological, nuclear instructor for 15+ years and a primary health care provider with 35yrs experience. the EPA website contains a lot of information on the use of permethrin for clothing. also the use of DEET for skin.The use of ELIMITE cream has been the standard of care for the treatment of scabies,lice and skin mites for several years now.previuosly KWELL was often used.Kwell is 1% lindane and ELIMITE is .5% permethrin.The side effect profile and risks for permethrin are much less,but remember each is a chemical.!!!!This year I used "bulk" permethrin mixed as a.5% solution sprayed on clothing and in over 21 days of hunting found not the first tick or chigger on me or my grandson. YMMV but having diagnosed and treated several cases of lyme and Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever over the years I will take the precautions of using repellants and their risks over having either of these diseases :thumbsup:

 

[Skychief]

Not an expert by any means but a practical user of deet and permethrin both in the military and Civy use.I am (was) a chemical, biological, nuclear instructor for 15+ years and a primary health care provider with 35yrs experience. the EPA website contains a lot of information on the use of permethrin for clothing. also the use of DEET for skin.The use of ELIMITE cream has been the standard of care for the treatment of scabies,lice and skin mites for several years now.previuosly KWELL was often used.Kwell is 1% lindane and ELIMITE is .5% permethrin.The side effect profile and risks for permethrin are much less,but remember each is a chemical.!!!!This year I used "bulk" permethrin mixed as a.5% solution sprayed on clothing and in over 21 days of hunting found not the first tick or chigger on me or my grandson. YMMV but having diagnosed and treated several cases of lyme and Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever over the years I will take the precautions of using repellants and their risks over having either of these diseases :thumbsup:

majg1234, Thanks you very much for weighing in. Your credentials speak for themselves.

Best regards, Skychief.

 

[hanshi]

Permethrin is great stuff; I've used it since several years ago and NO TICKS :thumbsup: .

Just use as directed and don't use it to flavor your lemonade. :grin:

 

[Skychief]

Just use as directed and don't use it to flavor your lemonade. :grin:

:shocked2: :shocked2: :shocked2:

 

[majg1234]

yep thats the ticket :hatsoff:

 

[410-er]

Don't like any sprays for them.I keep a short buzz haircut to make checking easier.After a shower a complete check head to toe.Most I ever had on me at one time was around 80 on a spring turkey hunt.Washing machine on hot water with soap didn't kill the 12 I missed on my pants.
I don't pick them off and restock them.This is how I deal with them.

 

[Mad Professor]

Well, a final comment as far as mixing goes.
Store bought brands have .5% (half percent) strength...which is 1.5ozs per gallon.

We order the concentrate because it's so much cheaper that way, and that also allows us to make it a little stronger.
I / we double the strength of ours to 1% strength, which is 3ozs / gallon.

A couple dozen folks on my hunting forum have done this several years now, get no ticks, have no problems.
Beyond that, I can't help you further, sorry

RB with 128 oz/gallon, won't 1% be 1.28 oz/gallon?

Regardless , I was advised by a Doctor who hunts. to mix your own with the stuff sold for farm animals, just make sure it is the only active ingredient of the concentrate.

 

[roundball]

No, I think you're confusing % of the product volume in a certain volume of water...with % of "strength of the concentrate".
==============================================
FORMULA MIXING 36.8% CONCENTRATE (round off to 37%)

To match the normal .5% over the counter strength in spray cans (expensive) it can be diluted to the 0.5% strength as follows where:

C1*V1 = C2*V2.
Concentration 1 x Volume 1 = Concentration 2 x Volume 2.

(37% x V1 in oz) = (0.5% * 1 gallon). Solve for V1.
(37% x V1 in oz) = (0.5% * 128 oz/gallon)
(37% x V1 in oz) = (64%oz)
divide both sides by 37% and you get:
V1 in oz = 64%oz/37%.
V1 in oz = 1.7 oz/gallon

For my purposes I roughly double that to 3.0oz / gallon...and for the occasional permanent natural blind I might plan on using overlooking a clearing, I'll go to it the night before the season, and saturate the ground cover with 3-4 gallons at an even stronger 4oz/gallon solution for a tick free zone.

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