Photos of Overpowder Wad Disc Departing Muzzle?

[MikeEasy]

Can anyone provide URLs to photographs of an overpowder wad disc departing the muzzle of a muzzleloading shotgun directly behind the shot train? Even better would be some photographs or x-rays of the wad disc and shot progressing down the barrel. Reason I ask is that I have myself in a bind, being able to argue either way about overpowder wads:

Argument 1 - Overpowder wads are unstable & ineffective:

A disc perpendicular to the barrel and under pressure from the gaseous expansion of gunpowder would appear to be in an unstable equilibrium so that, were the disc wad tipped (or bent) ever so slightly, gases would blow by the wad, further tipping it, pushing shot away from the tipped portion and rapidly dropping pressure. The upshot (no pun intended) of this would be that disc wads don't work well.

Argument 2 - Overpowder wads are stable & self-correcting:

Any area of the disc where gases could blow by would necessarily be an area of locally reduced gas pressure and consequently of reduced force on the edges of the disc. Similarly an area where gases were blocked would be an area of locally increased pressure and consequently of increased force on that edge of the disc, providing a self-righting impulse. The side of the disc under the greater pressure would move more quickly down the bore, righting the disc. The disc is in a dynamically stable equilibrium when perpendicular to the bore. The upshot of this is that disc wads work marvelously.

All this without considering the differences between disc wads that are stiff, those that are flexible and without computing the spherical harmonics of the disc as it flies down the barrel betwixt combusting powder and shot!

A plea to the scientific method: a photograph could cut this Gordian knot with which I've ensnarled myself - my brain for a photograph! Aaaargh!

Photos that consistently show a disc wad exiting the barrel while perpendicular would take me out of my conundrum.

 

[Robert Egler]

Does it really matter? I've tried many combinations, and my gun shoots a better pattern with an overpowder wad than without one, so no matter what the overpowder wad is doing, it's doing the right thing.

 

Mike,
There are photos of the wad leaving the muzzle and full loads in flight. Each gun is going to shoot differently, with the same loading components and, science or not, you will have to determine the best load by shooting your gun. I have a 12 gauge that does better without an overpowder wad and a 16 that needs one. All of the formulas and photos in the world are great, but success is measured by results.
Mark :idunno:

 

[paulvallandigham]

Remember that the OP wad is pushing a much heavier load of shot, and that the velocity is constantly increasing as the gases expand and the load is pushed out the barrel. There is always pressure on that wad from the weight and inertia of the shot load.

If your patterns are blowing when an op wad is used, the problem is usually NOT a tipped OP wad. Instead the OP wad's edges have been compromised and don't seal well as a result, or the OP wad is not sized properly for the ACTUAL bore diameter.

Too many shooter think that because they buy a modern replica shotgun or fowling piece marked 12 Gauge, that the Bore is Actually 12 gauge. Sadly, not always true.

Always Measure the bore(s) of a smooth bore before ordering, or buying wads and cards. :hmm:

 

[CoyoteJoe]

I know of no photos of muzzleloading shotguns but have seen quite a few from modern shotshells of the 1950's & 60's. Those photos show the OP wad tight against the rear of the shot charge an inch or so from the muzzle and dropping behind when the shot has traveled six inches past the muzzle. Those photos show no harm done to patterns by the wads and certainly refute the often claimed event of wads "shooting a hole in the pattern". The shot charge is still an almost cylindrical cluster when the OP and cushion wads are dropping well behind just a couple of feet from the muzzle.
I have no doubt that in identical loads with or without an OP wad, the load without the wad will show much lower velocity and that velocity difference will very likely be reflected in patterning differences.

 

Photos that consistently show a disc wad exiting the barrel while perpendicular would take me out of my conundrum.

It doesn't matter what a photo shows. Where your ball is hitting the target is what you should worry about. If you're shooting is accurate, why would you care what the wad is doing after it leaves the barrel. Besides, once it leaves the barrel, it has no effect on the ball. IMHO

 

[George]

I've been looking for photos such as that for quite a few years, but haven't found any. Like Coyote Joe, I remember some from earlier of modern shot shell loads, but never one for ML. I would very much like to see some, because I have the same curiosity about what that wad is doing. It would good to actually see it and put an end to the very imaginative theories some have put forward about it.

Spence

 

[BrownBear]

...the very imaginative theories some have put forward about it.

Spence

Ayup. Reindeer really can fly cuzz Santa sezz so. :snore:

 

[George]

Well, BrownBear, glad to see you are still here. I called you out in my thread about my cedar-bark gobbler, and when you didn't respond I assumed the law had caught up with you. :haha: :haha:

Spence

 

[CoyoteJoe]

This is the best I could come up with, it's from the book "American Shotguns" by L.R. Wallack, copyright 1977 but I'm sure the photo is much older since it is a comparison of Winchester's "new" Mark V shotshells with a plastic shot wrapper against older shotshells without the wrapper.

 

[BrownBear]

Well, BrownBear, glad to see you are still here. I called you out in my thread about my cedar-bark gobbler, and when you didn't respond I assumed the law had caught up with you. :haha: :haha:

Spence

:haha: Glad I was missed. I've been on the road with almost no online access for the last couple of months, just getting home yesterday. Too many days gazing at the wrong end of cows- followed by days of dodging California drivers- kinda crimps a guy's view of the world. :rotf:

On the topic at hand, one thing in the CJ's posted photos kinda jibes with my experience. Putting a nitro card under the fiber wad seems magically to do away with donuts. It seriously makes me wonder if the issue is due to gas blow-by with fiber wads, rather than the wad pushing through the pattern. Dunno, and I ain't hunting photos to sort it out. I just use the nitro cards with fiber wads and go on shooting.

 

[wahkahchimaol.com]

Forgive me for my ignorance, but what please is a nitro wad? I want to buy some to test from Track and it's not coming up. Thanks.

 

[drstrangelove]

Gas blow by will create a higher velocity stream of hot gasses exiting the barrel along side the shot column. This high velocity gas will by the Venturi principle pull the shot column apart circumferentially and create a donut. Felt and fiber wads don't seal the explosion the way 2 tight nitro cards will. My best patterns have been with 2 nitro cards, 1 lubed felt, OP card, ticked shot, and OP card. The ticked 16ga plastic wad failed to open its petals and showed no signs of compression at the base or sides, leading me to conclude the column failed to choke at .690; it patterned no better than cylinder. Going to order some BP-12's and try again.

 

[George]

Too many days gazing at the wrong end of cows- followed by days of dodging California drivers-

How do you tell the difference so you know when to dodge? :grin:

Spence

 

[BrownBear]

Too many days gazing at the wrong end of cows- followed by days of dodging California drivers-

How do you tell the difference so you know when to dodge? :grin:

Spence

You do have an insightful way with words, Spence! :rotf:

Hey Wahkahchim, Track of the Wolf calls them "Type A" cards, though the old name is nitro cards. They're on this page. They're hard cards that not only do a better job of sealing the bore against gas-blowby, but also in my experience do a good job of scraping fouling from the bore when you seat them. Fouling builds pretty fast without them, but with a well-lubed fiber wad between them and the powder it's possible to do a lot of shooting without having to stop and swab.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

Brown Bear, your post spawned a thought which hadn't previously crossed my mind, that perhaps some people are using the fiber wad over powder without the benefit of a card wad behind it. I've always recognized the necessity of a hard card overpowder wad, with or without the fiber wad. It just never occured to me that some people may be skipping the hard card and that may be the very reason they have poor patterns with a fiber wad, perhaps they don't realize the fiber wad should not be used alone.

 

[Rifleman1776]

OH boy! Another 'thing' to cram down the muzzle. New idea to me. But, admittedly, I'm not a real experienced smoothie shooter. Yet. So, now, we load: powder, thick card, fiber wad, thick card, shot, thin card. :shocked2:
Come on, enuf already. Everytime something is added that is more weight and more recoil, more money, more time fussing and loading.
Is it all really that important? :surrender:

 

[BrownBear]

...powder, thick card, fiber wad, thick card, shot, thin card....

I skip the second thick card with no demerits. As for complications, it's no more complicated than getting a patch around a round ball and seating that.

Extra recoil? Man, I wish I had so little to worry about. The thing must weigh a whole two grains.

The bottom line is getting the pattern you need for your jobs. Less is certainly better in getting to that goal, but what's the point of shooting if your load won't hit?

 

[George]

I skip the second thick card with no demerits.

If I am using a cushion wad I've always put down 1 hard card, first, and never one over the cushion.

I've wondered the same as Coyote Joe whether people might be using the cushion wad alone. That's not a good idea.

Spence

 

[CoyoteJoe]

OH boy! Another 'thing' to cram down the muzzle. New idea to me. But, admittedly, I'm not a real experienced smoothie shooter. Yet. So, now, we load: powder, thick card, fiber wad, thick card, shot, thin card. :shocked2:
Come on, enuf already. Everytime something is added that is more weight and more recoil, more money, more time fussing and loading.
Is it all really that important? :surrender:

If you want to keep it light and simple, skip the fiber wad but keep the over powder card. If you want to carry just one wad, make it the 1/8" over powder cards. Load two over the powder and one over the shot. Although the fiber wads are sometimes called "cushion wads", or "filler wads" their main purpose in a muzzleloader is just to carry lube to keep the fouling soft but there are other ways to accomplish that goal.