Pinning Barrel?

[Minuteman]

Got a Hatfield last weekend and to make a long story short; the barrel needs to be pinned to the stock. The reason being they used the rod pipes as washers to hold the barrel to the stock. Some of you I'm sure are familiar with their technique. Any way its a fine way to hold the ramrod pipes on but seems too weak for the wood to barrel work as on has deformed around the screw and no longer has enough meat there to hold it on.
A little stock info is in order before i ask my question. There isn't enough wood in the forend of the stock to take a wedge. I THINK theres enough for pins if I keep them real snug to the barrel.
So what I'm wonderin is whats my best bet here? Should I use a staple that sets tight to the barrel (Smaller than my pin) and kinda remove a little barrel material to open it up a little so the barrel can heat up?
Does that sound like a do-able option?
Also whats the best way to locate and drill the holes through the stock? I've drilled and tapped a few scope bases on centerfires before(got a little experience!)so I've experienced the cold sweats of the "gettin it right or its a tomatoe stake" syndrome! Do I just measure 30 times drill once? Or are there any tricks or tips ya'll use?
I just spent the last month cutting and splitting firewood so I could get money to buy this rifle and I want it to be right. Figgered I'd better get some good advice.
Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

 

[MikeChapin]

I have used TOW's shallow underlugs (UL-TC-1) on two rifles and like them very well. They need a shallow dovetail and fit in nice and snug. A 1/16" or a 5/64" pin works great.

I first used them on a .32 I built the first of the year. I liked using them well enough that when it came time to replace the underlugs on another rifle, I used them also.

 

[jcline]

Hi There!
I had a similar question about pinning the barrel and received lots of great advice and tips. Still not to that step yet, but believe I have the info I need to get it done.

Hopefully, this link works. If not just do an advanced search for topics started by jcline.
[url] http://www.muzzleloadingforum...id/196287/post/294557/hl/+jcline/#294557[/url]

 

[Minuteman]

So which is the better bet, the staple staked in or the dovetailed-in underlug?
I'm leaning towards the staked in staple unless folks have bad reports on them. do they pull out under hard use?
Seems easier to drill a coupla holes than to cut a whole new dovetail.
Lemme know whatcha think.

 

[mbw907]

The best way that I have found to measure your stock is to add your staple or underlug, whichever you choose, and then you will need a drill press. Place the proper size drill bit in the chuck and then lay the barrel on its side and align the drill bit to go into the lug or staple. Clamp a small board against the other side of the barrel, which would be the usual top on the finished gun. Clamp the board to the press and then put your stock back on the gun. With the barrel against your board it should be the proper depth to drill. Check and recheck before you drill. A pencil mark on your barrel will help align your lug from front to back. Hope this helps and not add to your confusion.

 

[Birddog6]

What about brazing a lil meat onto the RR pipe & putting it back as it was ? Or call Ed Cain at Cains Outdoors & ask Ed if he has any new RR pipes for a Harfield.

 

[Minuteman]

Bird dog, I'm just not satisfied with the method they used to keep wood and barrel together. Gotta do something about it. Seems too weak to trust in my book even with the pipes being new.
I'm gonna pin it regardless. I will call Scott Cain tomorrow and see if he has any pipes for it already cut and drilled. That will make things easier, won't have to grind a drill bit to fit the inside contours of the pipe where the screw goes through.

 

[oldarmy]

Those thin underlugs from Track work better then staples.
You have more surface area holding the barrel/lugs and once they are fitted they will not come out.
Very easy to install, and you can file the "leg" to just a little over the 1/16" you need to drill for the pin.
Also there are lots of old rifles out there with the barrel underlugs showing through the web.
If you break though the web,while not a good thing is not the end of the world.

 

[shortstring]

I've used staples for years with success. One thing that's true is that you need a good way to determine how deep your drilling the holes in the barrel. This is probably more ticklish than the holes thru the wood. I've heard of more than one barrel with a hole drilled into it. I'll dovetale lugs on thin barrels like the "A" weight skinnies that are out there. It's slower but safer.

 

[Birddog6]

Minuteman: Well, another way of looking at it is, if you are rough enough to pull the screws out thru the RR pipes, at least all it did was pull it thru the pipes & little other damage. You are the first one I have heard of this being an issue with. I didn't care for that way of securing the barrel either, but it worked. If I remember correctly, some of the JP Gunstocks riflews were done the same way. The rifle is not supposed to have the barrel removed, as there is no reason to remove it, ya grease the bottom of it put it in & leave it alone.

Since you want the underlugs on it I would use the small thin slotted 1/2" ones from TOW or Tip Curtis, TOW# UL-TC-2. I prefer these as they are already slotted & you just drill into the slot & then file out the slot a lil on each side to give some clearance for the pin. On thin barrels I take same underlug & hold it with a pair of lineman pliers & sand down the base on a belt sander to about .045-.050 so it is thinner, then use a shallow dovetail for it. You can also take a lil off the bottom of it, however if ya do, ya deed some precise drilling as you don't have allot of lug left & no room for a misplaced hole.
I don't have a Hatfield anymore so I don't know how much room ya got between the RR hole & the barrel, but you need to measure & insure you have enough room for a underlug. My memory says there is enough meat there but my memroy ain't too swift, Bob... George... Jim....... well, you know who ya are........ :hmm:

If Ed Cain is still there (have not talked to him for several years) he is very knowledgable about the Hatfields as he was involved in the selling of them, he knows of all the ups & downs of the Hatfield company, & he has a presentation Hatfield there at the shop that is just a gorgeous striped rifle & the prettiest one I have ever seen. But Ed knows them inside & out & did have allot of parts for them & still repairs them. He can tell you how to ID ones age & where it was made by which place & all of that. Some of the parts are interchangable & some not, etc.

Good Luck !! :thumbsup:

 

[Minuteman]

Birdog, I appreciate the advice but I think I'm gonna set it up so I can take it apart. I may even turn the underlugs into hooks so I can remove the tang bolt, slide it forward a 1/4", then lift it out.
I don't see how you can safely clean the barrel without removing the barrel. What if theres water under the barrel? How do you keep the water you're using to clean it with from getting all over the wood and under the barrel?
I can't think of a good reason NOT to be able to remove it for cleaning. :grin: Why shouldn't I remove it fer cleaning?

 

[DrTimboone]

Minuteman, you can remove the barrel for cleaning if you want. :v I don't. When I put her together I sealed the stock thoroughly and I waxed the heck out of the barrel, pins etc and even put a bead of wax in the barrel channel before assembling. Now I will take the barrel off only if I need to repar the stock or some such thing. When I clean the barrel I try not to get water in the stock or under the barrel..and if I do it is well protected. After two years including one hunting trip in the rain, I dismounted the barrel... to my chagrin it was wasted effort..not a sign of rust!!

I do remove the lock for cleaning though cause I like a real clean wel lubricated lock.

You heard of the two guys who used the restroom and when finished one started to wash his hands and the other started to walk out.. I believe the hand washer was from Harvard. :bow: .. The other fellow from UGA. TheHarvard fellow say, "Hey,where I went to school they teach us to wash our hands after using the restroom." The bulldog says " Yeah well where I went to school they taught us not to _ _ _ on our hands!"

Where I went to shool they tought us to keep the water away frm the bottom orf the barrel/stock. :rotf: :rotf:

 

[Minuteman]

Thanks for the thoughts guys. Nodody'll know unless I clean it in front of 'em anyway . My little secret I guess. :grin:

 

[Birddog6]

Birdog, I appreciate the advice but I think I'm gonna set it up so I can take it apart. I may even turn the underlugs into hooks so I can remove the tang bolt, slide it forward a 1/4", then lift it out.
I don't see how you can safely clean the barrel without removing the barrel. What if theres water under the barrel? How do you keep the water you're using to clean it with from getting all over the wood and under the barrel?
I can't think of a good reason NOT to be able to remove it for cleaning. :grin: Why shouldn't I remove it fer cleaning?

Minuteman: Hey, no problem.... It is your rifle, do as you wish with it.

Personally, I think you are going to allot of trouble for nothing........ But as I said, it is yours & ya gotta do Your thing :grin: ...

No, I don't take my barrels out to clean them. They didn't take them out for 400 years to clean them & I see no reason to take them out now.

If you pin the barrel & take it out every time you shoot it, won't be long you will find out why that is not good. Punch marks all over the wood, chipped out pin holes, loose pins, lost pins, the list goe on. If it is a pinned barrel it is supposed to stay IN the stock. Now if you want to do wedge pins, that is a dif thing all together.

I clean my rifles with a flushing kit, upside down in a rifle cradle. No water gets in the barrel channel or on the wood. I have done it for over ? 25 years this way & have never had a problem or issue with it. It is simple, fairly quick (20 min tops & Completely finished) and hardly any mess at all.

When I am done I put a rust inhibitor in the bore, on the outside & then I put a thin film of patch lube grease down the edge of the barrel channel, so IF I would be caught in the rain with it, no water gets down in the barrel inlet.. The barrel was greased with it was put in the stock & it will be fine, as I have pulled them out 5-10 years later to do other repairs & the rifle was fine. Oh maybe a speck or rust here & there on the underside..... so what. The dang rifle will last 500 years !! And by that time they will all be wall hangers !! :shocked2:

 

[Minuteman]

Thanks ,Birddog6 for your pictures and advice and I also appreciate the email correspondence as well. I talked to Scott Cain and my rod pipes and underlugs were shipped on Monday.
If the new ones work better than the old ones do I may leave it. Simply because drilling holes in this purty stock is a little frightful to me. But if theres still the slop in the barrel to stock fit like there is now and was when I bought it,(I didn't break the rod pipe loose through rough handling!) I'm gonna install hooked underlugs that fit over two pins( which won't need to EVER be removed) and go from there.
Thanks for the photos of your cleaning setup! :hatsoff:

 

[Minuteman]

Well, I received the stuff from Cain's and they appear to be original stuff. Just like the ones that came off of it. Minus the wallered out holes obviously! :grin:
The front one was STILL loose. I thought that it was bottoming out in the tapped part and that I could just remove a little from the bottom of the screw. There wass only about 3 turns of thread on the dern thing to start with so I left that alone.
It turns out that the wood is just thinner there than where they put the other pipe. So I took a piece of cardstock, cut it to fit, soaked it in oil and laid it between the rod pipe and the stock. Snugged it right up!
Now, I guess I'll set those under lugs up on the shelf in the shop and see how the new rod pipes hold up to normal use.