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Pistol for hunting deer?

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ebiggs1

69 Cal.
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Muzzleloader: muzzleloading rifles or muskets that can be loaded only through the front of the firing chamber with separate components and that fire a bullet of .39 inches diameter or larger; muzzleloading single-barrel pistols having a barrel length of 10 inches or greater that can be loaded only through the front of the barrel with separate components and are .45 caliber or larger. Only hard-cast solid lead, conical lead, or saboted bullets weighing 210 grains or greater maybe used with muzzle loading pistols. Muzzleloader-only permit holders may not have a rim-fire or centerfire firearm in possession while hunting deer.

This is from the 2010 Kansas Deer Hunting Regulations handbook.
It reads like any revolving black powder pistol is illegal in Kansas.
It also sounds like a Hornady round ball is illegal? What’s your take?
 
Revolvers aren't legal in most states. Not many revolvers have a 10" barrel. Power level on revolvers is generally lower also.
It's the first time I've heard of the "Hard Cast" thing. Interesting. :hmm:
 
ebiggs said:
Muzzleloader: muzzleloading rifles or muskets that can be loaded only through the front of the firing chamber with separate components and that fire a bullet of .39 inches diameter or larger; muzzleloading single-barrel pistols having a barrel length of 10 inches or greater that can be loaded only through the front of the barrel with separate components and are .45 caliber or larger. Only hard-cast solid lead, conical lead, or saboted bullets weighing 210 grains or greater maybe used with muzzle loading pistols. Muzzleloader-only permit holders may not have a rim-fire or centerfire firearm in possession while hunting deer.

This is from the 2010 Kansas Deer Hunting Regulations handbook.
It reads like any revolving black powder pistol is illegal in Kansas.
It also sounds like a Hornady round ball is illegal? What’s your take?

It dosnt say "single shot" (like it does here in Oregon) sp the barrel length would be the only real obsticle.
 
The way I read it, they're talking single shot pistols only, and if you're using RB it has to be at least 52 caliber (212 grains)- reference for ball weights is here.

If you're going to use a caliber smaller than 52, you'll have to use a conical. The 45 caliber Hornady Great Plains bullet tips the scale at 285 grains, so should be okay. Their 50 cals can be had in 385, 410 or 460 grain weights, and 54 cal in 390 or 425 grain weights.
 
Revolvers would not meet these standard, as most come with barrels under 10 inches in length. I had a " Buntline" .44 cal. percussion revolver with a 12" barrel, but you would have to shoot conicals to meet the weight requirement. The length of the conicals and the need to clear the end of the cylinder causes you to have to see them deep into the chamber, reducing the amount of powder you can use, and the velocity you can achieve with them.

For those reasons, I recommend finding a .54 or larger bore PISTOL- not a revolver_ with at least a 10 inch barrel on it if you want to hunt deer. Keep shots under 50 yds, and preferably under 35 yds, and you should do okay. The larger caliber bores and the heavy balls they fire don't need a lot of velocity at those short ranges to hit with a lot of force, and completely penetrate a thin- skinned deer broadside. Pick your shots, of course. :thumbsup:
 
My two cents is don't use a muzzleloader handgun for hunting. During a muzzleloader hunt several years ago I dropped a doe and when I got to the deer it was still alive, so I pulled out the 50 cal handgun and shot it in the head from about a foot away. The bullet bounced off the deers head, probably fractured the skull, and it thrashed in front of me while I reloaded the rifle and finished it off. It was not a clean kill. Before I had the handgun I reloaded in the same spot I shot so if a finishing shot was needed I was ready, I put my faith in the handgun that time but not again. I don't remember the the load, probably 25-30 grains, and don't remember if it was ff or fffg.
 
here in wa. we can only use a revolver for small game such as roughed grouse. the single shot pistols must be .45 or bigger and hold and fire at least 45 or more grains of powder. (page 75 of wa. big game rule book.)
 
Here in Florida it's 40 caliber or larger. No mention of pistols.
Same in Alabama where I also plan to hunt. Will be carrying my 457 ROA with only 5 conicals loaded.
 
The reg you quoted does say "single barrel" loaded from the muzzle so that pretty much rules out any revolver or pepperbox. Actually, it seems to me your DOW has it's stuff together in those requirements. Here in Colorado no pistol is legal for hunting during the ML season. You can carry anything you want but you can't legally use it to take game during the ML season. Some hunting buddies carry singleshot ML pistols as back up but since no pistol is legal for taking game I just carry my .357 or .44 Bulldog, hoping I won't need it and hoping that if I do I won't get caught. :haha:
 
I don't think I would use anything less than a .54 if it were me. Unfortunately we can't use handguns of any kind to hunt with but this is on my "Bucket list". :hmm: Some day, some how I'd like to do it one time just to say I did.
 
CoyoteJoe said:
The reg you quoted does say "single barrel" loaded from the muzzle so that pretty much rules out any revolver or pepperbox. Actually, it seems to me your DOW has it's stuff together in those requirements. Here in Colorado no pistol is legal for hunting during the ML season. You can carry anything you want but you can't legally use it to take game during the ML season. Some hunting buddies carry singleshot ML pistols as back up but since no pistol is legal for taking game I just carry my .357 or .44 Bulldog, hoping I won't need it and hoping that if I do I won't get caught. :haha:

I have been through Texas Creek many times on my way to Durango and Cortez.
The only time I have ever been stopped by a Game Warden was while hunting in Colorado (several times I might add). They were not very pleasant to deal with although they didn’t find any infractions. If I were you I might do more than just hope you don’t get caught!
 
All my years hunting CO, I've only had one encounter with a warden. I'd been quail hunting with two friends, and when we got back to my truck he appeared out of nowhere and wanted to see our shotguns. I was carrying a 28 and my pards were each carrying 20's.

Turns out someone using a 12 had been seen poaching turkeys in the area, so that ruled us right out.

When he asked what we were hunting and I told him quail, he started laughing and said "Boy, you sure are from Alaska aren't you!" He then said we were 50 miles from the nearest quail, but directed us to where we might find some.

We didn't find the quail, but at least his laughter at the lost Alaskan was polite and friendly! :rotf:
 
ebiggs said:
CoyoteJoe said:
The reg you quoted does say "single barrel" loaded from the muzzle so that pretty much rules out any revolver or pepperbox. Actually, it seems to me your DOW has it's stuff together in those requirements. Here in Colorado no pistol is legal for hunting during the ML season. You can carry anything you want but you can't legally use it to take game during the ML season. Some hunting buddies carry singleshot ML pistols as back up but since no pistol is legal for taking game I just carry my .357 or .44 Bulldog, hoping I won't need it and hoping that if I do I won't get caught. :haha:

I have been through Texas Creek many times on my way to Durango and Cortez.
The only time I have ever been stopped by a Game Warden was while hunting in Colorado (several times I might add). They were not very pleasant to deal with although they didn’t find any infractions. If I were you I might do more than just hope you don’t get caught!
Yep, they do seem to be everywhere! Last winter I took a drive down a dirt road just to let my dog run a bit. I soon noticed lots of blaze orange and realized it was one of our many deer seasons. I turned around and headed home, apologizing to my dog. At a bend in the road a DOW pickup skidded to a halt sideways, blocking the road. A cute female warden jumped out like her pants were on fire and was at my truck window in seconds to check me out. If I had anything to hide she sure wasn't giving me much time to do it. The thing is she pulled the same stunt on me a couple of years before and we nearly collided on the snow packed road. That is what I call "aggressive enforcement". :haha:
 
About 35 years ago, Colorado set up roadblocks at the state lines.
On 50 there was a weigh station just outside of Holly. You had to use the truck stop lane and they stopped everybody that had any indication of being hunters. They would unload your vehicle and search it. If you had a deer or elk they checked it and your tag. They were pretty clinical and not really friendly or unfriendly. I guess traffic got to heavy for them to continue that practice.
 
yes looks like a single shot only and 54 cal would be good a Chamberlin Pa in 54 cal would work good
 
Frankly, those kind of road stops violate the 4th Amendment Privilege against Unreasonable Searches and Seizures. There is no probable cause for police to stop anyone simply because the " Look like a hunter", or have some portion of an "animal carcass" exposed to view.

A valid search, with or without a warrant, requires facts that indicate a crime either is being committed or has been committed; and that evidence that will prove the elements of the criminal offense will be obtained by police by conducting a search, and seizure. ( IN rare cases, such as when the crime may not have been committed, but will be the end result of a series of events that comprise a conspiracy, if the officer can ARTICULATE facts indicating there may be proof of that conspiracy, or the future crime, he can get a warrant from a judge that allows him to stop a car, and conduct his search, and seizure.)

What evidence is there that a crime has been, or is being committed by someone driving by wearing "hunter orange", or camouflage clothing in the Fall, in Colorado?

Good Grief, man! Wearing Hunter Orange, if anything, is evidence that the hunter is COMPLYING with state game laws- not violating them!

For those reasons, I believe those searches ended because someone threatened to file a Civil Rights Action against the State if they continued to do these kinds of warrantless stops.

If any member here is every stopped like these "road checks" describe in the future, document the stop, and who the officers are that are involved, and RUN to your attorney's office. He may not do civil rights work, but he can find you someone who will. Plaintiff's Attorneys are paid fees by the losing party, in civil rights cases, and a lawyer will not even take a case unless he is fairly confident he will win.

Alan Gura, the attorney for the Plaintiffs is Heller vs. Washington D.C., the case that went to the supreme court to result in a defining of the rights protected by the Second Amendment as being Fundamental, and Individual rights of Americans- not a collective right of the states. His attorney's fee bill submitted is $3.1 million dollars. He of course, represented the Plaintiffs at trial, where they lost, on appeal to the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals, where they lost, and before the Supreme Court, where they won. Lots of work done over many years. Gura now has represented McDonald Vs. City of Chicago before the Supreme Court, and will be submitting a bill to the local District Court for his time and work in this case, filed the day of the Heller decision, and decided by the Supreme Court almost exactly 2 years later- a very short trip through the Federal Court System. Gura won't collect nearly the amount of fees he is asking in the D.C. case, but Chicago will be paying his fees.

So, don't suffer, or put up with this kind of abusive Police behavior. Be polite, and comply with officer directions on the street. He is "GOD" there, and has a gun. But, he is an officer of the court, and has to answer for his conduct in my "ballpark". :grin:

I taught a course of Police Liability years ago, and I gave the same advice to officers in my class to explain to them how to avoid being sued for violating an accused's civil rights. I have also explained the limits on police authority to Chiefs of Police, so that they more fully understood the powers they have( and don't have) under the 4th Amendment. I support, and encourage good law enforcement. But, I don't encourage officers to violate the Constitution.

They have broad enough powers to get their job done better ways, if they only think about where they are trying to go. Coaching them on how to find Probable Cause, and teaching them how to present it to a judge to get the needed warrant is part of the "fun" part of my profession as a lawyer.
 
Who said they were police Paul??

I've seen the very same thing setup in Vermont years ago by Game Wardens who stopped any truck/car that looked like a hunter in it. Game wardens are not police and some ways have more power than police.
 
It seems pretty clear to me that cap and ball revolver handguns are not within the definition.

Muzzleloader:muzzleloading rifles or muskets that can be loaded only through the front of the firing chamber with separate components and that fire a bullet of .39 inches diameter or larger; muzzleloading single-barrel pistols having a barrel length of 10 inches or greater that can be loaded only through the front of the barrel with separate components and are .45 caliber or larger. Only hard-cast solid lead, conical lead, or saboted bullets weighing 210 grains or greater maybe used with muzzle loading pistols. Muzzleloader-only permit holders may not have a rim-fire or centerfire firearm in possession while hunting deer.

A cap and ball revolver hand gun is neither a muzzleloading rifle or musket. The front of the chamber loading is probably to accomodate rifles like the Hall, Burnside and Greener. It would probably permit the revolver rifle, assuming you can get a 210 grain bullet in the 44 chamber.

As for pistols, it clearly says muzzleloader pistols load from the muzzle. A cap and ball revolver handgun clearly has only one barrel, Except the LeMat, but cap and ball revolving handguns do not load from the muzzle even if they had 10 inch barrels. A revolving pistol like the Allen and Thurber would not be a single barrel.
 
I know you must know what you are talking about so how do they get by with such behavior?

As far as I know Colorado has quit stopping vehicles at the state lines. I have not seen one in place for the last 25 years but I have not hunt Colorado in the last 5 years. All my relatives are passing away out there.
However the last hunt we were on, we had no luck at all. My friend did finally get a mulely buck on the last day of the season and at just before legal hunting time ends. We got loaded up and started down from cow camp on our way to Cortez but just before we got to Delores there was a roadblock and the Game Wardens stopped everybody.
This gravel road is still up on the mountain.
They searched us and questioned the taking of the deer because they thought it was still too warm. My son had one of those fancy watches that has every feature most cell phones of today have. He had put the exact time into the watch to record the event. He showed it to the game warden and he believed us and let us go. I was pretty worried there for a while.

I have had them come into camp and search it. They check your license and tags and equipment and question you. I have never been stopped in Kansas.
 
back to the pistol hunting thing in Illinois I can use my 54 cal lyman plains pistol 8" barrel as it is barrel greater than 6" less than 14" has muzzle energy published at greater than 500 lb the load of a 53 rb and 45 grains of goex 3f does this and shoots well. Anyway I do not know of a production pistol other than inline types that meet your requirements I am sure there are some custom ones or maybe Perdisoli makes them. I wonder who comes up with this stuff do they just look at a magazine?
 
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