Pistol for hunting deer?

[rabjr]

Ebiggs, they can and do have a habit of busting balls especially non-residents but as long as your buck was properly tagged, theres nothing they can do about it but put a scare into you. It's up to them to prove you took it illegally if you did, which you did not. So even without your sons watch, there was nothing they could do.

And yes they have more power than regular cops, at least here they do.

 

[ebiggs1]

One thing for sure, they can put the “scare” into you. In Colorado they can confiscate your equipment, all of your equipment. I actually think they would arrest you and you could probably get off for reasons you describe but they can certainly make it rough.
At this point I have no reason to lie about it because they did let us go and it was a properly taken legal mulely buck.

 

[ebiggs1]

Yes back to the pistol-hunting thing, the way Kansas wrote the statute; I know of no production pistol that qualifies. But that statement is really worthless because I am not an authority of any kind. I just wanted to able carry another gun while I was muzzleloader hunting.

 

[rabjr]

One thing for sure, they can put the “scare” into you. In Colorado they can confiscate your equipment, all of your equipment. I actually think they would arrest you and you could probably get off for reasons you describe but they can certainly make it rough.
At this point I have no reason to lie about it because they did let us go and it was a properly taken legal mulely buck.

I grew up with Fish and Wildlife here and knew very well the class of 68' of Game Wardens. I knew most as a kid and got to know very well, most were decent guys but back then you were rewarded for the most arrests, something that caused a lot of trouble. I remember one stoping by asking my father to go with him in a boat, they would put in the top of a well known river on opening day of fishing season and watch for the guy who tossed a line out for their little kid. They would then land the boat and check the man for a license, even though it was his kid who was fishing. To many times the parent would not have a license and was fined. My father thought that was wrong ang refused to go with him, wanting no part of that. The system sucked, the more arrests you got the more more you went up in rank. I believe they finally did away with that system sometime in the 90's. I can't really be sure anymore as my father retired in 90' and most of everyone I knew in Fish and Wildlife are gone now do to retirement and deaths.

 

[buttonbuck]

Like I said on the pistol there are several inline types I know we have discussed the tc scout here but the only other I can think of are modern inlines or custom made underhammer percussion sidelock or flintlock

 

[paulvallandigham]

Read your Constitution again, Swampy. It doesn't matter if they are police, or game wardens, etc. They are officers employed by the State or units of local government. They are bound by the Constitution's proscriptions against Unreasonable Searches and Seizures all the same.

When I began teaching Hunter Safety back in 1982, the Conservation officers, who had replaced Game Wardens here in Illinois some years back, but after 1968, were under the impression that they had more authority than do police. Its only a "fuzzy' legal question when it comes to going on private property to locate injured, or dead game taken illegally. Most lawyers and prosecutors still believe the officer needs a warrant, or permission of the property owner to enter the property. That is the requirement of the 4Th Amendment to the Constitution.

Of course, there are still police officers who think that Oath they take to defend and support the Constitution is just "words", and think they can do everything and anything they want because of the badge they carry. I have even known some who claim its Not their job to worry about the Constitution. That is the Prosecutor's job!

Those kind of officers are lots of fun to listen to UNTIL they get served with the Federal Court Summons for a Civil Rights Violation Civil Suit, and the Department tells them they need to get their OWN lawyer, in addition to the department providing counsel for their defense. The City, or County, or State will be liable to pay any judgment entered against the officer, but since even political divisions of government have finite resources, the officer needs to hire his own lawyer TO PROTECT HIS PRIVATE ASSETS from seizure in case of an adverse judgment that exceeds the government's ability to pay.

Then, officers like that are NOT so fun to listen to.

When I taught Police Officer Civil Liability to experienced officers at our local Police academy, I heard lots of bravado, and bragging about illegal "busts" they got away with, until we began talking about civil rights cases. One officer, in the class I am remembering, told the class about a suit against another officer in his department, and his department, filed on behalf of a known criminal, who was permanently injured when the officer's gun went off against the side of his head. The officer was attempting to break up a fight in a bar, and hit this Plaintiff up side the head with his duty revolver. The gun fired, destroying the hearing in that ear, burning his scalp and hair, and leaving permanent scars. The case was settled for only $10,000, which the city's insurance company paid.

The settlement was so low BECAUSE the Plaintiff was a convicted criminal and trouble maker, and his lawyer was not wanting to chance what a jury might do. But, what would have happened if the guy didn't have a prior record, and was just a good citizen in the wrong place at the wrong time?

---Start adding zeros to that settlement figure.---- :shocked2:

BTW, the DA revolver the officer used has built in "safeties" that require the trigger be pulled all the way back and held there while the hammer falls, for the gun to fire. He didn't just "Hit the guy up side the head". He had his finger on the trigger of a loaded revolver, and THEN hit the guy up side the head.

He violated his own department's USE OF FORCE policy by threatening deadly force when circumstances didn't warrant that level of use of force.

Why would anyone use a $400 firearm as a "club" in the first place????This was before the latest "Wyatt Earp" movies came out a decade ago, but there have been movies and TV shows about Wyatt Earp clubbing drunks on the screens for years longer than I have been alive.

So, no, Swampy, the fact that the state employees are not officially police officers doesn't allow them to conduct illegal searches. They have the power of their office- whatever it may be-- behind them, and it may not be used to violate Fundamental Rights. The 14th Amendment to the Constitution prohibits state officials from doing so. The Recent decision of the Supreme Court in McDonald vs. City of Chicago re-affirms that concept-- that there are Individual Fundamental Rights, that cannot be abused by States and local governmental entities, including the right to own a gun and have it in your home for self-defense.

Paul

 

[rabjr]

Read your Constitution again, Swampy.

You don't have the right to tell me to read anything, you can suggest, ask me too but the days of anyone telling me to read anything was over when I graduated.

So, no, Swampy, the fact that the state employees are not officially police officers doesn't allow them to conduct illegal searches. They have the power of their office- whatever it may be-- behind them, and it may not be used to violate Fundamental Rights. The 14th Amendment to the Constitution prohibits state officials from doing so. The Recent decision of the Supreme Court in McDonald vs. City of Chicago re-affirms that concept-- that there are Individual Fundamental Rights, that cannot be abused by States and local governmental entities, including the right to own a gun and have it in your home for self-defense.

What the **** are you talking about, I never said any of the above. :youcrazy:

 

[bwhoffman]

For the need to dig deeper into KANSAS regs, ...how do they define handguns? There are several interpetations of PISTOL.
pistol can be different from revolver.
Pistol can be single shot
Pistol can be an auto
pistol can be handgun et al.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Swampy: You must be having several very bad days. I know you are not one to complain, but when your back is giving you lots of problems, you get all out of sorts. You have my sympathy.

Our current disagreement?? began when I commented to EBIGGS that the searches he described were Unconstitutional. This is what you injected:

"
Who said they were police Paul??

I've seen the very same thing setup in Vermont years ago by Game Wardens who stopped any truck/car that looked like a hunter in it. Game wardens are not police and some ways have more power than police. "

I then addressed your comment that " Game wardens are not police and some ways have more power than police".

Game wardens are subject to the same Constitutional limitations as police are.

I am done. Sorry if I ruffled your feathers. It was not my intent. Lots of people read these posts, and pay attention to yours, and, sometimes, to my own, because we usually have something to say. I DID NOT WANT anyone here going away believing that Game Wardens had More Police Powers than do police, or that they are not subject to the limitations placed on the police by our Bill of Rights. No, you didn't say much about my final comment. I added that because the McDonald case made the "news" when it extended the Second Amendment to the States, and it illustrates that our U.S. Constitution applies to all forms of government agents, when they use their police powers illegally.

As for "telling" you to read your Constitution again, Nothing I write forces anyone to do anything. Its your choice. I was merely suggesting a source of information that disputes your assertion about game wardens having more power than police.

Jr. High, and High School "Social Studies" teachers are lousy sources of information about the Constitution, in my experience. They teach out of a manual, that in itself is poorly structured and poorly written. I studied Constitution History and law in two different courses in College, and then took the required Constitutional Law class in Law school.

Believe me, I was looking around for a railroad spike to run through my right foot, to give me an excuse to never have to go to another Constitutional Law class when I hit law school!!! :shocked2: :rotf: But, I learned new ideas about the subject the third time, too, and that is when I found out that even College level Constitutional law( pol. Science) and Constitutional History classes in some colleges are not well taught. My classmates had some very strange "Misunderstandings" about the Constitution in my law school class, based on their comments, and questions in class, and then their comments and questions to me during study sessions. In 1987, I was asked to prepare a speech about the Constitution as part of the celebration of the 200th Anniversary of its passage. I had to clear the desk, and spend many hours reviewing the constitution, and then distilling it down to concepts that could be quickly spoken to educated men and women, about what the Constitution IS(was) and what it is not. When I found out that most of the audience would not have read the constitution since they finished high school, more than 40 years before then, I made copies of the Constitution and all the amendments to pass out to the audience. The older men were laughing at how many "NEW" amendments had been passed into law since they last read the Constitution. Most of them thanked me for both my speech, and the copy of the Constitution.

I am too old, and too sore, to be having a disagreement of this level with someone I respect. Lets stop it here, Okay???

Paul

 

[rabjr]

The fact is they do have road blocks in some States and do search vehicles for game.

As far as I know they have the right to come on your property and look around, thats the nature of their job. They cannot enter dwellings or out buildings without a warrent or permission.

Ever talk to someone who hunted Maine out in the middle of no where and come face to face with a warden miles from the nearest road asking to check your license? Private property, lumber company property, don't matter.

I don't know about police or anything else but seems to be more power than police have. And if it's not right, well, they didn't get the memo. :v

 

[luieb45]

I'm glad our old game warden finally retired because he was very corrupt. I wouldn't call this situation corrupt but he used to go to the state park on opening day of dove season and dress up as if he were hunting and ask hunters how many they shot and bust them while he was in disguise.

 

[rabjr]

Thats the job Luie, has nothing with being corrupt. Same as posting a robot deer out in the field watching guys shoot at it after hours or just before the season.

If your squared away, have all the tags/stamps and are legal in every way, you have nothing to worry about. Anyone that Game Warden busted, did something wrong and deserved to to be busted.

 

[luieb45]

I wasn't saying the undercover thing was corrupt but the corrupt part I heard that he would take bribes.

 

[rabjr]

Well thats different, yes I know all about bad ones. We had one retire a few years back that was one of the biggest poachers around, nice for some to hide behind the badge. :shake:

When you drive around at night, you get to see where all the big ones live.

 

[ebiggs1]

I have no intention of claiming you don’t know the law but I had a Game Warden tell me the wild game was the property of the people and that being so, he could do what he needed to do to protect the peoples property.
Cow camp in Colorado was 3500 acres (private property) that is land locked. It had an easement so the owners, my wife’s cousin, could access it. Gate is always locked and it is about a mile from the gate to camp. The Game Warden came in several times each year and looked around. He checked inside the barns, I don’t remember them going inside the house. They flew over and looked for gut piles and would radio to Wardens on the ground. You hear this stuff far too much to not think they, at least think, they have special rights.

 

[John Wasmuth]

In Texas Game Wardens are Peace Officers, have all the same authority as do all Peace Officers in the state. Anything they can see in "Plain View" can be an excuse to investigate further. They, as well as any Peace Officer, may freely go anywhere the "Greater Public" can go. There are good ones, there are bad ones, just like in any other profession. I have met many when I was a Police Officer, most of them thought that they were some kind of god, I mostly thought they were idiots.

 

[ebiggs1]

I have never met a “nice” one. Every encounter I have had has been negative and then they expect you to help them. I must admit that 90% of my encounters were with Colorado Game Wardens. I haven’t been stopped or checked by a Kansas Game Official. I have been stopped in Missouir a couple times.
I also have never broken any game law that I am aware of, nor do I intend to.

 

[paulvallandigham]

i answered this question in private, as a result of a PT sent by EBiggs. I am too tired to reprint my response here. I think I have made myself clear. I know the standard LINE used by all conservation officers-- to wit; they have the right to go anywhere they want to protect the State's Game and other wildlife.

Well, its a great line, but its simply not so. Cops do these kind of things( and are trained to do so) to talk their way into areas where they may observe or hear something they otherwise would not see or hear. I have instructed officers on how to get " around the law" myself, to catch crooks. A close gate is just as solid a barrier for your privacy as the closed front door on your home. Officers, including game wardens, need Probable cause to satisfy warrant requirements before they can go through or over locked gates to "snoop". They get away with going places they don't have a right to go BECAUSE No one sues them, and gets injunctions, and large monetary damages from the agents, and their employers for breaking the LAW! And, they are breaking the law.

For what? Criminal Trespass to land is a misdemeanor, while most hunting violations are petty offenses. An officer is going to be allowed to commit misdemeanors with impunity to make a Possible arrest for a petty offense??? Who is running that zoo???

In states with large timber leases, the companies often give state police agencies written permission to patrol and police their lands. I don't know what is going on in Maine, but I would not be shocked to learn that the timber companies that own vast forests, yet make the lands open to private hunters, have given permission, in writing for the agents to come on their lands to enforce game laws.

Its the first question I would ask of my client, and then of the land owner, if I was hired to represent a hunter given a ticket he believes he doesn't deserve. ( It happens, guys!) :shocked2:

 

[Dave K]

I can very honestly say, I never met a game warden I didn't like. Maybe I was lucky, maybe my showing of respect for the law, carried some weight. But I never had a problem. Locally I know the game wardens well, where I hunt. They do protect not only the wildlife, but property owners rights. My history with this type of law enforcement doesn't go back as far a many of you. I didn't start hunting until '78, but we have had several officers since that time and we knew each other on a first name basis. Now, I remember several people (hunters or outdoorsman doesn't apply to these outlaws), they were always in trouble. I think they thought it was cute to mess with the law. As far as decoys, I have no problem at all! They bring out the outlaws. Shooting at one is illegal in many ways. One is trespassing, one is shooting from the roadway and another could be out of season/after hours.Many times it is also with a hunting tool that is not legal to be used for deer in our state. The wildlife is owned by the citizens. Anyone taking game outside of the law is stealing from the rest of us, that paid our dues to hunt....legally. I better get off of the soap box as I can go all day and night.

 

[rabjr]

I have to agree with you Dave. It's been my experiance too. Most of the bad storys I've heard have come from friends.

Case in point, a friend took me for a ride all over the Adirondacks one day, I had a 5 year disabled permit to take a Doe instead of a buck if I wanted and being handicapped I could pull over as long as I was 10' off the road and shoot from the vehicle. Not really my way of hunting but a friend wanted to show me some territory as he checked his Beaver traps. So I sat in the passenger side with my Ruger#1 chamber open and a cartridge in my hand. About two hours in and 3 Beavers later a Warden drives by us and turns around, he had seen the Beavers and wheelchair in the back of the truck.

He comes up asking whats going on boys as he eyes my gun and asks me politely to turn it so he can see the chamber is open, nods his head and asks if we have seen any deer....then he really checked out my buddys trapping license and made sure all the T's were crossed and I's were dotted. Chit chated a bit, looked over the Beavers then said you two have a nice day. He never checked me, and I was the non-resident!

A few years back I had some friends who hunted Maine every year for two weeks, had one of those big canvas tents and woodstove, they hunted private property of a friend. There was a fenced off road off the main road that went in 15 miles, they packed everything in with Quad's. Sometime through the course of their stay, they got about 10" of snow and one of my friends coming out to the logging road from his stand one night walked right into a Game Warden wearing snow shoes and he said to my friend "good evening, any luck?" Then asked where his camp was and followed him to the camp, my friend had Polio in one leg so he was a bit slower than the rest and usually the last one in camp..

Once they got there the Warden introduced himself then one by one asked for each man to show him the chamber of their guns, at which point my friend hung his head and ejected a shell. Then they went on to checking all licenses and tags. Wrote a fine to my friend and told everyone to have a good night as he walked down the logging road to a skimoble, and out he went. I forgot what it cost my friend but it was time out of work to go up there and take care of it, seems to me it was at least 100 bucks for the fine or more and I think he lost his license for one year, if I'm correct.

He was kind of scared walking with an unloaded gun way up there in Maine and being that far off the beaten path.....who knew.