Pistol Identification Request

[Shooty McShootface]

Hi guys? Can anyone help me with some more information on this Belgian flintlock pistol?

There are severalstamps - ELG and a star, a crown with "LI" underneath - both these on the barrel, and a crown with an "F" underneath (next to hammer).

Many thanks.

 

[Brazos John]

The E LG in an oval is the proof stamp from Liege, Belgium.
Liege was a manufacturing center in the past, producing steel and turning out lots of firearms, and proofing other guns made elsewhere.
Read more about Liege. It's fascinating! And a beautiful city! Narrow streets that dead-end with no turn-arounds! Reminded me of a spy movie with a car chase through the narrow streets.

 

[OLUT]

Hi guys? Can anyone help me with some more information on this Belgian flintlock pistol?

There are severalstamps - ELG and a star, a crown with "LI" underneath - both these on the barrel, and a crown with an "F" underneath (next to hammer).

Many thanks.

Since I left Belgium over 20 years ago, I have no access to all the various "crown" stampings. Your gun is a typical Belgian made military pistol , but it has a distinctive side plate that is lacking on many of them. These pistols were sold to many different countries. For example, see the listing below that I pulled off the internet for this type pistol. Bannerman sold MANY of these as surplus over the years, with a big advertisement and a selling price of $6.95 in my 1927 catalog. (He must have sold out, as I can't find them in my 1940 catalog). They are sometimes also called a sea service pistol.

 

[Shooty McShootface]

The E LG in an oval is the proof stamp from Liege, Belgium.
Liege was a manufacturing center in the past, producing steel and turning out lots of firearms, and proofing other guns made elsewhere.
Read more about Liege. It's fascinating! And a beautiful city! Narrow streets that dead-end with no turn-arounds! Reminded me of a spy movie with a car chase through the narrow streets.

Thank you John. I plan on making a trip there to explore the rich manufacturing traditions of that city. Hopefully early this year when the days get longer.

 

[Shooty McShootface]

Since I left Belgium over 20 years ago, I have no access to all the various "crown" stampings. Your gun is a typical Belgian made military pistol , but it has a distinctive side plate that is lacking on many of them. These pistols were sold to many different countries. For example, see the listing below that I pulled off the internet for this type pistol. Bannerman sold MANY of these as surplus over the years, with a big advertisement and a selling price of $6.95 in my 1927 catalog. (He must have sold out, as I can't find them in my 1940 catalog). They are sometimes also called a sea service pistol.

View attachment 373529

Thank you for the response Olut. That does indeed look very similar to my version, except this one has a flat butt as opposed to the round butt in my images. That sentence reads a little strange I note the ELG without crown means its from 18 August 1818 and 11 June 1893 as Belgium did not exist as a State yet. I understood it to be a cavalry pistol from 1810 but the one above mentions maritime? I think, but cannot be sure, that the crown and initials are proof marks of the examiner...but then why do these have crowns? France, Netherlands? Can you tell me what you mean by disntinctive side plate? Many thanks again. Does this pistol have a type / name?

 

[Mle1822]

This pistol is a Belgian made copy of French Service pistol, simplified from the models An M9 and M13 for colonial use, probably 1820s. Belgium as such didn't exist, it produced firearms for other armies. French pistols were used by many countries in and after napolenic wars, there were hundreds of thousands made. Picture by Udo Lander, Fred Hofele.

 

[Shooty McShootface]

Thank you so much for this additional information. Very helpful detail and educational!

 

[rickystl]

This pistol is a Belgian made copy of French Service pistol, simplified from the models An M9 and M13 for colonial use, probably 1820s. Belgium as such didn't exist, it produced firearms for other armies. French pistols were used by many countries in and after napolenic wars, there were hundreds of thousands made. Picture by Udo Lander, Fred Hofele.

View attachment 373913

Here is another Belgium made copy of a French AN13 pistol. The specs on this Belgium made pistol are the same as the original French counterpart, but the mounts are all iron versus brass. Only one I've ever seen personally.

Rick

 

[Auldjin]

Thought it might be interesting to show a Charleville example.

 

[OLUT]

Thank you for the response Olut. That does indeed look very similar to my version, except this one has a flat butt as opposed to the round butt in my images. That sentence reads a little strange I note the ELG without crown means its from 18 August 1818 and 11 June 1893 as Belgium did not exist as a State yet. I understood it to be a cavalry pistol from 1810 but the one above mentions maritime? I think, but cannot be sure, that the crown and initials are proof marks of the examiner...but then why do these have crowns? France, Netherlands? Can you tell me what you mean by disntinctive side plate? Many thanks again. Does this pistol have a type / name?

The proof house in Liege was founded in 1672 and continues on through today. If you read the history of the region currently called Belgium, you'll see that this area was under the control of many different countries for hundreds of years. The place we now call Belgium arose from their rebellion against Dutch rule of this region in 1830. But despite what the region was called, the Liege gunmaking center flourished and made commercially available weapons similar to yours for many other countries. To sort out and identify all the variants and their various stampings is beyond capability. The siideplate that I mentioned is the piece on the opposite side from the gun's lock ; most versions that I've seen do not have this specific piece.

 

[rickystl]

Notice in my Post #8 and Post #9 how identical both pistols are. Always thought the iron mounts were curious. Wonder which government/army/navy requested the change (?) But again, another one of those Belgium variations. As mentioned in Post #10, the variety seems endless.
The gun shops in Belgium, especially during this period, would purchase surplus gun parts from a variety of governments and then assemble complete guns using a variety of surplus and new (for then) parts and sell them everywhere.
By the early 20th Century these shops were making smooth bore flint muskets for sale/trade to the natives in South Africa and elsewhere. Then, selling similar type guns for sporting use (primarily to the USA) all the way up to at least the 1960's. Turner Kirkland of Dixie Gun Works took advantage of much of the Belgium surplus in gun parts by purchasing large and small lots and listing them in his catalog.
So, it would seem that these Belgium shops had a long history with muzzle loaders. LOL

Rick

 

[rickystl]

REF: Post #3 That pistol must have been the most popular to come out of the Belgium shops. They must have been made by the thousands. Even today, they are offered for sale in almost every auction and gun list. They were made so robust that most are still in shooting condition today. A unique feature with this pistol is that they were made without a provision for a ramrod. The idea being for cavalry use to have a separate loading rod suspended around the neck with a leather/cotton throng. Plus, the single barrel wedge might have been less costly to make than a barrel band and spring, yet still easy for take-down. This pistol seems to have been an original Belgium shop design, not a copy of another pistol.

Rick